Speaker 1  0:01  
Welcome to Engaging Ideas, the bi weekly podcast from Parsons TKO, bringing you conversations with mission driven leaders and luminaries to shift your perspective and challenge your assumptions on the art of the possible.

Tony Kopetchny  0:16  
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of engaging ideas, the Parsons TKO podcasts. Today we'll be talking with Kevin Smith as our special guest. And we're gonna dive into a very interesting topic on this podcast, we're gonna talk about sports marketing, affinity and community building and how that relates into nonprofit community building an affinity work that you all do out there all the time. So thank you for joining us. And please don't forget to subscribe or leave us a review at the end of this episode. So welcome, Kevin. So Kevin is 30 years sports media and marketing executive that includes roles and companies. He's a founding partner of leverage sports and sponsorship, currently serving as an adjunct sports business professor, the sales program advisor and structure instructor and leadership coach with TCU, Texas Christian University here in Fort Worth, Texas, is a Career Strategist certified coach, as well for a pro readiness coaching. And he also was part of launching Fox Sports NFL Sunday Ticket, which I of course, am a fan of I don't know how many people in our audience are, but I have been a subscriber of Sunday ticket for a long time. And with all my moves around the country, I've greatly appreciated being able to watch my Philadelphia Eagles forever. I am so thank you for that, sir. Welcome

Speaker 3  1:34  
back. Yeah, we had a lot of fans just like you different markets. It's amazing. You get those loyalties, eagles commanders, I guess. Yeah, there's loyalty there as well. But you know, cowboys, wherever you go, there's certainly a fan base that will follow them. It's easier today, but certainly wasn't many years ago. So it was, it was a fun ride we

Tony Kopetchny  1:50  
went on, you have this tremendous run up. And this is get you our first person who's not directly within a nonprofit. I mean, we could consider the university. But coming from this sort of sports marketing world, and you and I had a very serendipitous meeting in the rare Texas rain. And we were both heading on a morning talk to listen to Marshall, the CEO of the Dallas Mavericks, which was a fantastic breakfast conversation and you genuinely generously start share with me a bit about your class. And it really struck me about the one of the courses you run there and some of the programming you do about how would you build affinity and build community for a team within a local area? And that really struck me is this is a lot of work that has to happen in nonprofits like, it's never been just about reach. It's always about engagement. How do they once I've got your attention? How do I get you to feel a part of the mission with me? And so I've been really looking forward to this conversation to see how we could bring these two pieces together. But you know, because I know a little bit about it, but the audience doesn't, can you just tell us a little bit about the classroom running at TCU. And the role sports marketing could play in developing communities and how you've sort of put that program together with your students?

Speaker 3  3:01  
Yeah, first of all, let's go back. So though that rainy day, kind of question, your judgment, why are you following me, you know, you didn't know where I was leading you, number one. But number two, obviously, we goes here since Marshall, who's the CEO for the Mavericks. And, you know, if you're looking for role models in the industry, just leaders, she spent many decades at AT and T and I don't care if you're in sport, you're in nonprofit you're in. Again, High Tech Center is one of those people that just you gravitate towards. And it was to your point, it was great to spend that time with her just to come together. And sometimes you would get a lot of speakers, we're very fortunate at TCU. Sometimes they really resonate with a lot of audiences. And she was one that was just a lot of fun to be a part of. So it was nice to nice to have that. So again, thanks for having me on this one as well. And tech, yeah, we have a sports marketing program is called sports. Entertainment. Marketing is the specific class I'm teaching right now. It's one that you know, has been going on. I've been in sport for, again all the years. And thank you for the introduction on that. And it's, it's becoming it's big business, just like anything else. Right. And I see so many families and students and everybody come in a sport, sport sport. And so there's this emotional platform, which I also think causes and fill in philanthropic endeavors. It's the same way. What are these emotional platforms that allow us to change behaviors that we do it and how do we leverage those for the actual intent of it but also it's, it can be a strategy can be a tactic in sports is one that ultimately sport is a big business, but also, it's a strategy. We started a sports marketing program in the business school at the University of Oregon, probably 2728 years ago. It's called the Warsaw Sports Marketing Program. A friend of mine, Jimmy Warsaw, who was phenomenal within the sports industry. Now the program put in the business school or belongs because we're talking about something that is it's got to drive business just like Parsons TKO. It's gotta what's the business? How are we helping what we're trying to accomplish is still gotta generate revenues create value. And for sport, people are saying it did take away from this fluffiness to truly something that is tangible. And we did it that time I set this program up at TCU, probably a dozen years ago. Same thing where it was, you know, there's just such a demand, I had the Dean coming in and said, Kevin, we've got, you know, X number of students walking through our door, to come here for admissions to say, Why am I going to pay $200,000 to go to the school? He goes, a third of those students are asking about sports, because I need to solve that problem. I go, okay, so he wanted to start a sport program similar. And I said, No, because it's just a saturation. I said, I want to teach students to be great marketers. And to be a great marketer, you have to understand just what I said those emotional platforms, sports, entertainment, philanthropic or cause related activities. And if you can do that, again, you get people's attention, you can cut through the clutter in the marketplace. Because we're, we've got so much content, so much access to everything every day. And how do we where's our attention, what grabs our attention, what holds our attention, what engages us? What builds that affinity, obviously, that we we will talk about in depth as we go on with this. So I said, I'll create a sports marketing or sports marketing program, but it's kind of marketing first. And sport is a part of it. I take undergraduates, and I love that, you know, we get to grad school and gets a lot of numbers crunching, as we you know, deep dive, but I love these 1819 Well, maybe not that age, give me the 2021 22 year olds that have had a chance to kind of work through their engagement and in going into college and all the things they think they have to go do let them go do it. And I take the juniors and seniors and we just we deep dive, how can we leverage this? How can we have some fun with this? On that day with the the Mavericks that we talked about set martial, they're looking to play a game, so it's the Dallas Mavericks and it's in a Dallas Fort Worth metroplex without eight to 9 million people. So it's a larger metroplex, but it's still different parts of the metroplex. And on the Fort Worth side, they were looking to play a game, which is where Texas Christian University is at TCU. Well, people, again, that have anything to do with Dallas, they're kind of those in Fort Worth to kind of push it away. So she was going, how can we build something and she has a she and her team and her marketing team, they're gonna play a game in Fort Worth in a preseason game. So it's a lot of fun, but she's going, that's just an event. It's just one singular activity, you may or may not be successful. How do we build engagement with the community, now we build that word, that affinity, that likeness, they like us that they just, they want to be a part of it, they're going to wear that MAVs Jersey, where they feel like it's a part of me, it represents what I stand for. And that was the whole quest for sense. He was speaking but we took the project on as a class. Because I've got this particular class, we had 30 students, Tony, and also we've got to there from 14 Different states around the country. One of the things about TC, which I really like it used to be 75 80% Texan. And that's about 40%. So we have young men and women from around the country. And so it's just this diversity of thought, of viewpoint. And so just they had their own introduction to Fort Worth and what that stood for Dallas or Texas in general. I've got five young men and women from Atlanta this semester, I haven't had five and 10 years, I don't know why they all came at once I say thank you, you're welcome. But again, they bring their own perspective. And so we just got to have good dialogue. That part

Tony Kopetchny  8:31  
is super interesting to me, because it's how can the mavericks and then the class in a way you took it make more than just the event make it about the team make it about can be dead in the nonprofit space that happens all the time, they'll throw a gala, or there'll be an event, or there'll be the online, something they do or even if you think of some of the bigger ones, you know, like a runner walk for life, those things that happen. So if they're doing just one event, how did they build more of the affinity around it? And I guess before we just keep running with the word affinity throughout the podcast here, I don't know if you've got a definition for us. Just so here in the audience, we can hear it too. But that that feels really resonant to what nonprofits need, which is how do I get you to then take this mission forward to not just show up for this one

Speaker 3  9:13  
day? Yeah, affinity can be used on the front end of the conversation or the back end. Sometimes on the front end, we have an affinity for a team, a city, we have a team for Philadelphia has just rabid fans, for example, and there's an affinity towards their teams, the Sixers, the fliers, you know, the Eagles, they're going to enjoy that they're going to have it there's an affinity from the very start. So we leverage that, that likeness, that wanting to wear the jersey be a part of something bigger than themselves. And so we can leverage that way. And then we got to find ways to have experiences, have interaction, multiple touchpoints that allow us to kind of deepen that relationship and then ultimately, hopefully get an engagement going where they want to be a part of what we're trying trying to do. So if it can happen on the front, they're given us the benefit of the doubt. And we then find we give them reasons why they want to engage with us further. And then we build that long term community where the back side again, we're out there just creating the engagement, and ultimately, they don't know about the Mavericks. Why would I support that team? We're giving them reasons. And so what we might do, Tony is that one event that we have the game they're going to play in Fort Worth, which is about 45 to 50 miles away from Dallas in their home arena, say that's a tentpole event, and he gets in the nonprofit space Exactly. We throw things we kind of are galas we put together, we try to make happen and everyone's got to come together and we're waiting for everything just to be perfect. It can't be. But then how do we again book in that with other things that we can do on the front end and the back end? Right? So at the Mavericks did, so we're gonna play a game or temple, let's say it's in September, will be the game. Can we do camps over the summer? You know, come over and do Dallas, Mavericks run camps for youth? Can we do a Business Symposium with the local Rotary Club? Can we do a they were looking at have an esports team? Can we do some kind of activity or event over here, or different parts of the metroplex. So you find ways that you can see that process, it's a build up. So you're having a chance to engage people throughout. So the time we get to the actual event, we built a pretty good buzz we built we know we've got some a return on that. And our chances of success will be higher. But also, we've touched people along the way that we probably wouldn't get if it's just a stand up stand alone event. And the same thing on the back end, how do we then take that and build it on the back end? What are those set triggers we have along their journey that have a relationship with us? How do we do it. And then from that, again, the finally at the start of training at the back end, we're still looking to build that relationship through engagement through touch points, through social experiences, all these things that can come together because with other like minded people, and that's kind of where how we use that event, and what they were looking forward. And so you know, they're gonna measure it. So basically, maybe it's social media traffic, they can trap determine where that's coming from, maybe it's merchandise sales, maybe it's, you know, not necessarily the tickets, because I'm going to, am I going to buy tickets to drive 50 miles? I'm probably not. Right. So that's not necessarily a, you know, good touch point. But what can be, how can we engage this and feel like they're part so people just, again, for the party or something they on the back of their car, their license plate, as you know, Dallas Mavericks there just becomes this affinity towards this team, that they're willing to put their own personal reputation, their own personal brand, out there to say, this is an integral part of who I am. I'm a MAVs fan, or I'm a nonprofit fan, I believe in the Cancer Society or whatever it may be. I kind of wear it kind of a badge of honor. And that's a little bit an affinity. And from that there's got to be some benefits and benefits and value that come from that. But ultimately, that's what we're trying to get them to, to feel as they engage in this.

Tony Kopetchny  13:08  
Yeah, it's some of the takeaways I had was write down when you're talking, especially in that approach of what they did to come in and find all the surrounding pieces within the community. For a lot of nonprofits, a lot of times I know there's this sense of they're almost going it alone. And like, who around them could they partner with that might be tangential, like the Rotary Club or these different groups. And then, because then you're, as the facilitator of bringing a lot of that together, your brand and your name, and your recognition stays there. And it's showing you're a part of it, and it's giving other people access and avenues. So just for anyone listening, I mean, that's, it's really interesting point is like, as you're setting up some of these entries into new markets, or setting up these events, like, where else can you leverage partnering, that sort of expands, maybe even tangentially to where you could have been? I know, you also had done some work, you were the CMO, and you launched one of the biggest street basketball tournaments in the US, which is really cool. Because when you talk to me about it, I had heard about it. We were on it too. And I actually went watch them. I remember going to watch some games when I was younger. So you know, setting if you could tell us a little bit about that. And also just the lessons you learn because you were you had one place and then you went to the next community. So like, how did you leverage? And what did you learn along the way as you kept building and expanding it out? Because we there are a lot of nonprofits out there that have started smaller and then you know, what do they do next? Do they franchise or do they team up with someone else at another city that's already doing it? I know there's a lot of thought about that is how do we do more better, faster, good out there, but then also still keep a steady brand. Yeah, tell us all about it. I'm excited about this

Speaker 3  14:48  
one. Yeah, so that I was actually an event manager for this. This was early in my career so wouldn't quite hadn't reached the sea level on that and versus some other things that I did. We actually were looking for It was because of a media partner. This was in the Dallas Worth area. So D magazine, which is our local lifestyle magazine, we created a three on three basketball tournament called whoop dee doo. And it was basically a fundraiser for Texas Special Olympics. And that was the intent. So it was really promotion, that magazine was looking to be that good community partner. How are they out in the community, looking for things, their publisher was pretty innovative in what he was looking to do. We had kind of this ideal playing the street ball, putting it together. And we just did that first tournament, not really knowing who's going to show up. And let's just say it caught fire pretty quickly. And all of a sudden, within our year two and three, we've got about 10,000 players on the streets, that we are blocked off, we put up over 100 Basketball goes outside and just had the street festival. So it was an experience yesterday playing basketball, but it was just coming down and just a part of the community what was going on, ultimately, still being a fundraiser for Texas Special Olympics. You know, the challenge was because we had to have if I was going to run a tournament with 10,000 players and let's say 50 to 60,000 spectators over the over the weekend. You'd have a lot of volunteers to make that happen. And just like anything else, the nonprofit sector. It's about engaging people finding ways to get them involved. Well, this was a tough ask. Because this tournament basically we went it's in it was in June. So it was the heat of the summer. So I'm going to put you on asphalt. I'm going to have you judge and referee a game where people maybe get overheated sometimes, you know in your volunteer and kind of put it together but it just kept growing and growing. We were pretty amazed and eventually said well how do we create a what kind of a grassroots marketing tour around the country and a number of places. So we we did 19 cities that very quickly our third year, then we did 35 cities that the following year. But going into new markets, you know, was a difficult one I saw was in Dallas, we did it I went down to Austin, Texas started one there. But instead of making it easy for the operators to pull that off, so it'd be a sports company, the nonprofit and just made it a festival. I then went into Washington DC, I blocked off constitution F and ran the tournament there just because you're right next to the Capitol, you got the lawn or you get on the lawn right there, you just got 1000s of people that will engage. And our partners were pizza and Pepsi. They didn't care where they came from. But they were wondering over what is this st bowl stuff and it was just great fun to pull that off. It was hard as heck because you just like any other events and especially running with minimal resources, you know, you finish at midnight and you get a couple hours of sleep, you get up and you're back on site four or five in the morning, off you go and do it that way. And DC was was difficult, I moved, I drove into town. And one of the things Tony, you and I've talked about prior is really from a resource perspective, the perception that sports have a lot of resources overall they don't players make a lot of money when it's guaranteed. You know, teams can sometimes it's really about TV driven. The difference between nonprofit and the sports world is basically the media, everything else, the sanka sports don't want to pay for anything. And they just they are cheap with it and just go forward, they don't have the money. Because everything's kind of been guaranteed, we've got to guarantee the player the product or service, such an amount that everybody else is working on peanuts. So I go into DC with one contact, who was the Marketing Manager for the Washington Post. And that's it. I had to go put on a tournament so that 10,000 players and 100,000 spectators could show up, make it happen. And you just you're creative, just like anything else. So sport is one that I can at least call people. I remember at that time, Tomic Mellon was a congressman, it just, you could call people that were the sports related just like any other industry, you know, who are those friendlies that you gotta lean on? And we did it and but I had to have the media partner that was if I didn't have the media partner, I couldn't have done anything what we did within a new market, because that was kind of the key resource. No matter what we did, how would we effectively communicate it with the audience's we needed to communicate it with

Tony Kopetchny  19:06  
I really like your comparison there with the media being the front, and the sort of focus on that, and the ability to get onto those large channels, right, the one that everyone's gonna see, I'm curious, too, though. I mean, it sounds like with the grassroots movement and going into DC, it sounds like word of mouth might have been a big part of this, you know, and I know a lot of nonprofits count on that too. Like, what's your experience with that sort of Buzz building word of mouth marketing? And, yeah. How did that play into creating this and getting it out into the new cities?

Speaker 3  19:39  
I think it it played a lot that time, Tony and I think it probably plays more now. I mean, think about the ease for which we if you and I go to an event in a local city, uh, you know, music festival. I may text you say, buddy, hey, don't do it. It's a pain. You know, parking sucks this word. I mean, just, I'm able to walk through it so quickly. It's just if you don't do Well, people are gonna know pretty quickly or vice versa. Tony, you got to get here, come on, there's good things happening. And I think just because of effective communication, we're empowering people to do that, I think you have to. And if you don't have that you miss out on a lot. And I'll use an example of a non sport example, I actually got out of the business for a short bit, just to, I guess, prove that I could. But I was moving back from Australia, to the United States. And I didn't want to go back to New York or LA. And a friend of mine just happened to be CEO for PF Changs, a restaurant chain, and they were launching a small chain called Pele Asian diner. He goes, they helped me launch this thing I was going sports media, rice and noodles is known as building a brand. It's what you do. And I did it. And it was just fascinating. I was the only person I got to ask dumb questions. They tolerated me. But I brought a different perspective. Again, how do you real hospitality entertainment environment, but one of the things I did is go in and all the managers were kind of measuring ourselves, how are we doing with our engagement of our audiences. So whether you're a sport entity or restaurant or nonprofit, we're always we need to have our thumb on the pulse of how are we really doing besides what we think we're doing, what's our objective measures that we're seeing how we're doing, we have the typical surveys one to five, one being horrible five being your rockstar, three being good. And for being above average, one of the things I did I immediately cut out threes and fours, I only tracked fives and it just all the managers is you, you don't know the industry, you cannot do this and I go, if we're gonna get word of mouth, we have to deliver an experience that they're gonna go willing to do that. Our highest performing store is equal to or better than this was we got probably 120 125 stores this time. Pele, Asian diners, a quick, casual, Asian place to go. The stores that had that those fives were the highest performing ones because it was me willing to put my reputation on the line. Tony, I got a place I just tried. You need to try it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you. Because it was a five experience for me. It was a four, it's nice. I'm not gonna say anything to you, unless you bring it up. Or he may ask him Yeah, I try that is pretty good. But if it's a five, I become your avid fan. That rabid fan that it is I'm going to that word of mouth has substance at that time in our stores. We didn't advertise, we didn't we spent the experience when you walked through the door. That time this is when quick casual was kind of growing a little bit. But I wanted to make you my friend, I wanted to share something that was important to me that I found that I really liked. And so it was word of mouth. And so if we're going to really do that, and do it well, we got to make sure we're looking at the right metrics, because we just think, oh, they like our cause, of course, they're gonna go and talk about how have we given them the talking points to be effective with that communication? Have we seen that? Are they emotionally charged? So when they go have the conversation, the people on the other side, just since the, you know, the pride and the joy and being a part of this? Cause? That yeah, give me a little that I want a little that sauce? And so how do we just empower those around us? So word of mouth is huge. But it's got to be done well. And too, oftentimes, we just assume because we're drinking the Kool Aid, we think others will quickly as well. And we got to really walk them through that process, get them inside the ropes a little bit, and allow them to have that same enthusiasm that we might have for the calls in the mission.

Tony Kopetchny  23:22  
Yes, yeah, I really got my my head spin on a few things that I want to dive a little more into some of the measurements and tracking that we had a question about to you. But what I wrote down as you were talking to one point as communication is or as the experience, like what we are putting out, I think so often that we're getting messages out, and then we're waiting to see the reaction rather than thinking of it as the full experience that they're about to have with us is from the way I am sending that email and the links that I sent them and what I curated for them ahead of time to give them the experience that's gonna make them want to keep coming back or the way that they came to my event and what they had there creates the so the actual communication itself, not just the event, not just the moment of playing basketball, not just the moment of the gala, where we had a great speaker for you. It's it's everything that went into that is that experience that builds and I feel Yeah, I think that might not get its full do or credit. And then you know, another thing was my company we talked about as we came up with Macaulay Engagement Architecture. And because the idea was that nonprofits, it's not just about attention, like you're never going to write a salacious headline just to get a couple of clicks because you don't get any money out of that. And if it just ruined your brand. Then for us it was okay, well, if I had attention, are you prepared to then start cultivating this new relationship? And how it's I think you had said, you know, you were looking at the restaurants that had the five experience because you knew at the five level, everyone else would start talking to everybody else about it. That goes into you know, we've done a lot of work over the last year and some of it I think in the nonprofit industry has just been theirs always a lot of changes in CRM systems or email systems, or what folks are using and how the categorizing that segmentation has been hard. Everybody wants to get the personalization. But they're still not even able to segment to say, who's been most engaged? And if you're most engaged, if you're at my four to five level with my nonprofit, like, can you send me something different than the other people that are at the one or two? Yeah, so I'm taking a lot of lessons here in the same way, and I hope everyone's here, and that is that you know, that focus on, you have to have something different for the five. That's just, you know, you want the ones and twos to come because they're buying your meals, and it's helping the business grow, but they're also not amplifying it in the way. So you got to do something a little different. That top of those, yeah, as you're talking there, that's what I was thinking about. And then you started talking about some of the measurements and tracking and, you know, we had a question there free to just about tracking affinity building engagement, you know, what are some of the signals that you were looking for when you're trying to make an impact? And you had, you wrote me back and you had said, you usually like to do R O versus ROI for aro being returned on objective. And I really liked that, because that to me, again, really signals in pictures. I love it, because it's, it's so fits in with the nonprofit space because it's not necessarily return on investment they're trying to get they're trying to get return on objective. So yeah, I'd love to hear about this, as well as I think everyone in the audience and you might have given everyone a new frame for their next board board presentation.

Speaker 3  26:29  
Well, if you think about a Tony ROI, return on investment, it's hard to predict or follow through all the time, and become so black and white. And what we do with sport with cars. Again, we're an industry that's dealing with emotions, there's a lot of movement and things and how do we just get people engaged? And what does engagement look like? Have they come to two events a month instead of one? Have they made a purchase? How they had a dialogue with somebody? Did they follow up? What was our push through rate? If we did send out something? Did they tell a friend? No. Do they recommend us in that way? And again, that you got to find ways to measure that. But those are ways that are they truly engaged and feel a part of this community a sense of belonging, we're all looking for that sense of belonging? And are we empowering them to feel good about that, because if we do, they will be our biggest advocate. And we do see that process. As you go forward. I've looked at it as merchandise sales, I've looked at online traffic of ways to engage. I've looked at partner involvement. If we've been able to engage audiences, all of a sudden partners pay attention to that when I say partners, it's other like minded organizations, or ones that are footing the bill for and with us. I love that you just you find ways to engage people. And so how would we measure that? How would they follow up? And it's really relationship building as you go forward? And so what's the relationship and you and I also talked about a book that has come out called fans have more friends. And it's a book written by the senior VP of Strategy and Innovation at Fox Sports. So basically, there's they're betting on billions of dollars are spending on sports properties. They can't get it wrong. You can't mess up on that. $10 that obsesses. But you know, 10 billion, we got to make sure we were right. So the stats better be the metrics behind it, what are they looking at, they wanted to find a way to engage audiences. Now, one thing that sports has that nonprofit sector does not which will always be a differentiator is live sports. It's not on demand, I'm not going to watch temple basketball or, or the Eagles football. You know, I already know the score, I may watch some highlights, but I'm not going to watch the game. And so it's this tune in value, there's always that live component in our society with we have access to so much content on demand. Sport is still one of those few things that it's live. And that's why they're commanding huge rights fees for what they're producing. That's the biggest between those the two, if you will, and so how do you how do you leverage that and, you know, make it make it viable? We've got to find a way we got to be better storytellers in the nonprofit sector, because we have a lot of the same stories, but we got to cut through the clutter. And we don't have the live television component that's there that we know there's gonna be an instant tune in. Right? That we don't have that opportunity. And we got to find ways to to engage people with the means we have and go forward but let's let's be smarter with what's you know, sport is doing or sometimes we Why wouldn't we partner with sports? Yeah, I gotta say most of the stuff I do have done over the last, you know, couple of decades. Oftentimes, there's always been a non for profit component to it. I look at companies now they're all you know, what's our community engagement strategy? What's this? You know, social betterment? What's happening? Everybody's kind of looking for it. I think it's a great time for us to kind of make sure we're, you know, ask the question, always we're the right partners, because just rely on us. We just don't have the resources. To do it consistently enough to cut through clutter, we just it's too hard. So why can't we just leverage other people? And I say people because oftentimes in the past, Tony, it was probably about organizations or in the sport world teams, now it's individuals carry more weight than the team's a LeBron James has a greater following the Los Angeles Lakers, LeBron James is out drawing the Los Angeles Lakers, within his social digital footprint. So if he pushes something out, we know we're getting engagement. So it's a positive, it's also a challenge. And you're, then you're dependent on the whims that individual, you know, he or she may say something, you gotta move, really, you got to distance yourself. And it's hard to hard to do. Just like we're seeing now in college athletics, this name, image and likeness, now we're seeing college athletes have a chance to be on a platform because people give them the benefit of the doubt whether they deserve it or not. Sometimes, this past semester, I had a young man, Max Dugan, who was the quarterback of TCU, that helped them on that national championship run to get to the game, just a quality young man, you know, and I did some posts on some things. And he was just a part of it. But when his name was in it, I had a multiple, probably 10. As far as the impressions and views that I had when he was in it when it was not, it's just it makes a difference. So we don't know what that tipping point is going to be. But we got to find it every time.

Tony Kopetchny  31:19  
It's interesting to what you're saying. I've I actually think it's a time for nonprofits to be in more of a leadership role. I feel like there's the, the industry has always looked as like the second tier to the private sector, and the private sector is struggling to how do I build trust or affinity? And what's my brand? And because people are caring about, you know, are you a good steward to the environment? are you what are you doing with your funds? What's your dei approach? You know, I care about equity. And I just don't think the CSR Corporate Social Responsibility groups are the ones that should be leading that I think that nonprofits have the right and the time have spent years working on this, that they should kind of step up and be leading and sort of being able to give that back rather than waiting for someone else to say, Oh, here's how we could profit or profit or partner with you nonprofit, they can kind of step in, I've been thinking about that a lot. Just the bravery that needs to come from saying no, we're in a leadership position, like we get this. And y'all in the for profit sector got to start following on us a little bit. Because we're not here just to be a halo for you.

Speaker 3  32:23  
Please do I mean, they need and I say they, as a corporate, really, from a enterprise level, fortune 500. And even the small to medium business, which are just huge, you know, 100 million dollar companies still, they just need that component, humanity they need humanity to be associated with. And oftentimes we can best get that bring to the table through a nonprofit cause or effort, because it has to be a part of their equation,

Tony Kopetchny  32:46  
I wanted to dive into the fans have more friends to tell us a little bit about the study. But I do think there is a correlation here with the nonprofit community too. I mean, I get it like if I'm an Eagles fan, and I moved to Hawaii and I meet another Eagles fan, we instantly have something to talk about. But I think there's something similar in the nonprofit space, like I've been a volunteer with Special Olympics for almost 20 years. And when I meet other people to do that, you know, I have an instant affinity. And I could talk to them about that too. And we both care about it. And we're both giving time and money. And we've both done it for years. And I spread the word. Right. So it's what really was the core of the study? And then how could that apply to nonprofits? I think the question in my head for a nonprofit is it's It feels very linear a lot of times and communications like, I want you Kevin to get my email. Now I'm gonna build my engagement. You, Kevin, rather than how many other people is Kevin talking to as well. And if Kevin's really up there, and that the example earlier, you're the number five fan, maybe you're having a great experience telling everybody about it, and then you're cultivating that. And but that becomes your thing. Like, I don't have to control how many friends you have. That's up to you. But if I'm giving you something that gives you an affiliation to other people, like how can the nonprofits sort of play into that too? Yeah.

Speaker 3  33:56  
So the, the basis where the bands have more friends, again, for a television network, you're trying to figure out how are we engaging all the audiences? How are we segmenting them? How are we doing the right things? What's their usage patterns? Or viewership? Are they coming back? You know, how many hours what are the time slots, all those things you start to look to do. And it's still growth, they're trying to find ways that they can have new categories, new areas, like betting, fantasy betting other stuff, all these new things, that's where they're, they're leaning into, because it's all about or you're either growing or you're declining in the in the for profit business. Right? And if you're inclining your cut what's next they studied as far as who was our who's our audience? How do we make it good for them? And one of the things they came out with they first of all had to define who are these fans? And what makes them that kind of return on objective what what are they're doing that we can measure we can touch and feel as we go forward. And so they looked at the profile of who's watching games and why are they engaging with it and then we say watching as a spectator. It's Gotta be a face to face activity as well. So you got your temple cap on. So why am I watching temple basketball? How do I get involved with that? Am I going to the games? Okay, that's one metric check. Have I did I buy the program? Did I go in ahead of time to look at the scatter report? Did I go listen to the coach's show? Did I buy my temple, other cat that I saw was super nice. Have I gone to the Alumni Association have I, you know, all the things that are just around us and what we what they found in the sports world, as the social experiences, the more we can have those individuals has an excuse to get together. And if they did, they found if you were truly a fan, what they called high value fan. So you were invested in the success of the team and being a part of it, if you're that high value fan, and you had a tendency to have more friends. And so essentially, that high value found, and they had three questions I found was pretty interesting. And I run, you know, I was like, Look at him. So how many friends do you have from this origin point? So things I've done with temple basketball, how many fans or friends have I just developed from that? So it's got to be a value? It's not an acquaintance. We're acquaintances, and we'll continue to do stuff. And we'll probably get to that level that you know, what is a friend do? Something you can count on? And do it? How do you interact with friends? So what do we do? How are we not isolated? How are we going out? And that's how we kind of determined or at least in the study, how do they determine what are those fans? What qualifies you as a fan? what point do you get to say you are officially one. So the high value fan on average, had 35, almost 36 Friends, the non fan, so again, good person, all things, they didn't have a team they followed or league or something, they had 20.1 Friends, so it was almost like a 40% difference. And you think about it, you can I guess it kind of makes some sense. But even if you're trying to keep up with individuals, we're seating the conversation. You know, Tony, I care about you and your wife and your daughter. And so I may, you know, everyone says, Hey, Tony, what's going on? You know, the weather hit you, you know, you can do that only so many times is boring. But if we're talking temple basketball, we're talking something else. Did you see that last night was that that's the worst call ever, you know, we have an excuse to have an exchange, and then we may pick it up from there, or maybe a text and we call each other no, I did not want to talk further about that, that sucked. Or whatever it may be, we have an excuse to have an exchange of dialogue, that all sudden we have a chance to do that. And again, then we develop a deeper sense of relationship with each other. Especially I'm just gonna say guys, you know, it just not quite as vulnerable of opening up as far as what's there between male and female, kind of what's our hot buttons, men and women is rare in the marketplace. Sport is one of those that will allow us to have engagement to allow us to have banter will allow us to deepen our relationship to the end of the day, we're likely going to have more friends. And if we do that, the study even goes on that then our sense of happiness is better. Our well being because we're better community citizens, we're involved, we're engaged, we're confident. And so in our own communities, we're now doing more than we probably would, because we're not sitting back as an active or passive participants, we're not active, as simple as that, you know, it can be so it just starts with providing that that touch point, which is a sport or a loyalty to an affinity towards a group at fandom they call it the fandom flywheel, just what are the things around this fandom, and what it means and then the chances that we have to support temple basketball as our excuse. It's my excuse to take my daughter to the game, you know, she goes down, I want to go again, I know but you know how much I love, you know, my team XYZ you're gonna go through and she wants to do it because he wants to be a part of your life. And it's just it's an opportunity to have an exchange. And so from a sport world, that's what we do. How do we emulate that in the nonprofit sector? How do we create these experiences? And besides, again, just an event or a nice walk in me, sit around with your corporate partners at the end, and everyone goes home? And don't think twice about it?

Tony Kopetchny  38:59  
We talked a lot about that. You know how? And you know, fundraisers care a lot about that, too? How do I get somebody from passive to active? And I'm just thinking about what could groups do as you're talking and I'm like, if I was able to segment if I was tracking the engagement, if I really had these measures, I probably could create small groups and cohorts of people who might know or not know each other and say, Hey, we're gonna, I know you all are interested in global health issues, and especially malaria in Nigeria and evolve in different ways have told us this, we're about to have a small group conversation with 15 people and one of our experts, and I want you all to join and you're all going to get a chance to introduce yourself to each other because what I would think in my head at the end of that is I brought you all together because you were fans, but like, fans of my nonprofit or the work I'm doing or that cause, but now y'all are gonna go off and maybe you'll talk to each other. And then this has always been a theory of mine with Parsons TKO, and a lot of the community building work I did during the pandemic, when we couldn't go out and do things. I started facilitating these events, but I was like, I just like to be I like to introduce people because then I I could just be a glue in their conversation eventually. And they'll remember me, rather than like, I have to be in front of them all the time. But if I can get more people to get to know each other, and then they have something in common, like, that's great. I feel like nonprofits could probably benefit from facilitating some of that as well. And maybe, you know, it's it seems very easy when it's like a Ronald McDonald House feels a little harder when you're Brookings, and you're putting policy papers out, but it seems like the fundamentals if you're tracking, it could still be very similar. And then getting into the RT O, as you put it, in which I love. I'm going to tag you into a post after this on LinkedIn, just to kind of get that out to everyone. So I do. And one last question before a final final question. And you've touched on this a little bit. And I wanted to throw it out. Because I, you know, I know there's there's probably people in our audience that have been listening, and they're like, Yeah, that's great. But it's the Dallas Mavericks, and I'm like, a five person nonprofit. So yeah, how do I how do I really take any and I hope we've been pulling some of these fundamentals about engagement and activation and and what people could do, but you know, sports franchises, it feels like they have the luxury of larger budgets, even though you've been breaking that down for us that that that lot of times they don't, you know, but what are some of the key elements in affinity building process that are fundamental, no flash needed. They're accessible to anyone working in marketing and outreach. You know, you're sitting there, and you're this five person non profit, and you just got that new communications and marketing role, like, Hey, here's, here's some fundamentals to think about, as you're building out your program.

Speaker 3  41:25  
What would you recommend? Yeah, I think Tony, you probably start with, you got to understand our audience. It's marketing 101. You know, whether we're in the nonprofit or sports world, who our audience know, we don't have all the tools or resources to segment it out, completely, but we can all make pretty good guesses. You know, based on what we do know, understanding, just do be willing to do that deep dive. And so you got to start with the intent of if we were lucky enough to engage 100 people, 1000 people, whatever it is, how would we you know, which 1000 Would we want it to be, who would be our best customer, or best advocate or best donor or best fan or best stakeholder, you know, within our cause here, and you got to know what you're getting into. And I think we get caught up sometimes and feel like we just have to push things, we think that solves problems. And so I think as you're starting out, you got to put some basic stakes in the ground. We believe this to be our most valuable stakeholder, nonprofit skill, or at least my experience for my own efforts. Those that make a donation, we have a tendency to kind of gravitate towards them. And there may not always be the best people to spend our time with. It's who's willing to invest in us as a as a cause, as an effort, those individuals can touch 10 people, 20 people, 30 people that may be, you know, generate more revenues that one individual ever thought about, we have a tendency to kind of focus on that individual. How do we do that? So understanding that profile, sport teams in general, they don't have a lot of money. They are. I've said a lot of meetings, and I've been on both sides of the table. And basically, it's a good idea how you're gonna pay for it to generate the money. You just you gotta go just like me driving into Washington, DC to run a three on three basketball tournament. One contact? I don't have a cell phone at the time, because we didn't have that. Can you just you pick it up and go, Alright, how do I solve problems? How do I generate the attention, the support, and how I gotta go get in front of the city. That was a challenging time. This was in Marion berries, Marion berries time as mayor, it was just it was an interesting dynamic there was as this kid, new thing and 20 Something walking in, hey, look at me. It was fun to kind of figure out but my heart was in the right place. I knew I'd figure it out. And we got lucky we did. But if you're just starting out. So again, understanding that profile, who you are, what you're looking to measure, we think we're doing our cause of benefit. We're actually doing the people that we're communicating with a favor. Again, we want them to have more friends, we want them to feel belonged. I mean, we as human beings are struggling right now, because we're isolated. For the most part, there's a loneliness, they want to be a part of something. All we're doing is giving them the right cause. So we sometimes think we have to push it, we think it's a monologue. And instead it's a discussion. How am I creating a discussion? So let me understand the audience that I want for the right reasons. What's the dialogue we want to have? And then again, I think you said earlier, Tony, how do you have? What's the output? Let's assume they say yes, oh, what do we do now? What do we have our metrics and our processes in place enough, we can have the best process we possibly can. Because if people are going to invest their time, which is most important, and yes, their resources, we got to be good stewards. And we got to prove it straightaway. You've got to be prepared and, and show them that we're anticipating to be successful. We're anticipating for them to be come in and be a part of what we're doing. We're going to make their lives better. We're going to they're going to have more friends, they're going to have more fulfillment, they're going to have more satisfaction, we're going to enable that. Now to get there. We're gonna do a lot of tactical things that are transactional, but we're going to transform their lives. And those are the people we're going to who are the people we think we have a chance to transform their lives. We just got to build our our network of folks that believe in what We believe him. And that mightiness of that small group will be far better than just the masses, a golfer Jordan Spaeth at the time he's coming out playing on the tour. He's the young kid, he got lucky. Of course he was wins the masters that kind of helps always, which is the largest tournament the world, but he had this following. But in comparison, there was a guy named Tiger Woods that was about a multiple 345 bigger than Tiger Woods. I mean, and then Jordan speed. So they had to figure out how do we look at the audience and the engagement rates. And so they created a really engagement rate for online visibility, how many posts were then shared reshard or commented on and, and things and, and they were able to go to underarmor? And say, yes, we've got 1/5, of Tiger Woods. But here's how we're more engaged, and tigers audience, all he did is push out stuff. And he's this tiger, we've got an engaged audience, if you get us we're going to deliver and they put it together and it worked. And then he went, he grew exponentially bigger at that time, but it just it took slowing down solving what a partner would want to say, Hey, I'm willing to take a chance with somebody that knows our audience that well, that's going to create an engagement and a conversation for me in the marketplace. He's proven that he can his post, he's engaged. He's not just a token, someone's doing it for him. And that's not anything negative toggery was just at that time he was that person and that people doing things that just there was not a there was not a personality that was done it but but Jordan was we find the audience we care about. And then how do we engage him in ways and we talked about early is, is much their communication style and methods were late, we're demonstrating how we want to have a relationship with them. And if that's just transactional, and just a male champion, we're doing a lot of it. You're not really invested in my, my well being, I might sensing that.

Tony Kopetchny  46:48  
Yeah, we did an episode on here too, or is about personality, you know, getting personality, your own personality in the workplace, but getting personality to messages, I think just where I'm going to sum up some of what we talked about. I mean, yeah, he has to you have to have that personality. People want to engage, they want a human, they don't just want messages at them. I really liked how you phrased it, you know, be good stewards of our time and energy. And that goes back to the other thing, you just that I am stuck on now from this conversation, which is communication as the experience. Give be a good steward of if you are going to send me these emails, what can it equal over time? And how can you help me grow without overtime? Yeah, I really appreciate this conversation is fantastic, is everything I hoped to be. I hope our audience enjoys it as well. For anyone who's been a regular listener of our show, you know, we have built a Spotify channel, based off of the answers to the final question that I like to ask all of our guests. And Kevin, I have that for you today, as well. So what is your go to song when you need a boost? And why?

Speaker 3  47:48  
You know, when you first asked that I said, you know, my mind goes back the old school here, Earth, Wind and Fire, let me just play start playing some stuff and some songs. And then but it's interesting, I use music in a different way. Now, I'm just gonna say I'm very ADHD, you know, and I started going out and look at my computer, I've got like, 37 tabs open, you know, and then the spinning wheel of death is just going. And that's my my mind is going so when I kind of just stop and turn on Spotify. I'll slow it down. You know, I'll take something Leon bridges is a local artist, you know, I'll just put on something that Jack Johnson is is something that just kind of takes me let me escape music and entertainment is that same way. It's either you're engaged, or it's just an escape. And I've been using it more frequently, I just my mind starts going but then it starts overload overload. Funny, I was just looking, I just pulled up Spotify to see who I listened to last night. And those were the two were on there that I just I stopped in and took a break and just put them on

Tony Kopetchny  48:45  
big fan of Leon bridges to God suddenly on on vinyl here at the house. That's pretty cool. Well, thank you for your time. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it. And I'll talk to you next time

Unknown Speaker  48:57  
to appreciate you. That was wonderful. Thank you.

Tony Kopetchny  48:59  
Absolutely. And to our audience. Thanks for listening and leave us a review. Give us some thoughts or comments. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you.

Speaker 1  49:07  
Thank you for listening. Join us again for more engaging ideas with your host Parsons TKO CEO Tony Kopetchny. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a comment and share with your friends. Send us your feedback at create change at Parsons tko.com.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai