Unknown Speaker 0:01 Welcome to Engaging Ideas, the bi weekly podcast from Parsons TKO, bringing you conversations with mission driven leaders and luminaries to shift your perspective and challenge your assumptions on the art of the possible. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of engaging ideas, the Parsons TKO podcast where we like to bring you all kinds of ideas and thoughts from leaders and luminaries throughout the mission driven sector. And today, I am utterly thrilled to be joined by my good friend, and the Fabio, who is currently serving as the chief communications officer at the Pew Charitable Trusts. Welcome in. Hi, Tony, great to talk to you. It's great to talk with you. If anyone doesn't know who's listening. I had spent time working at the Pew Charitable Trusts I was fortunate enough to be and colleague for many years. So this is a delightful reunion episode as well. So it's good to see and yeah, this is fun. And we miss you, Tony. Oh, it's nice to be Miss. So okay, let's dive in. I've got several questions for you. Gonna start sort of more focus just on your individual career, and then we'll move into some broader trends in the industry, but chief communications officer, so I've I am curious, and maybe a lot of folks in the audience are to what falls in the purview of a chief communications officer? Sure, it's a it's an interesting question, because it's a relatively new title. Right. So for me, I view Chief Communications Officer or CCO Unknown Speaker 1:28 really, first and foremost, strengthen and protect if the organization's reputation writ large, right. So that crosses so many different elements, Unknown Speaker 1:39 in terms of how I think about what we're communicating when and to whom, but then also, the abuser is a research organization. And so I also have to think about, are we really effectively promoting our research or recommendations? Are we moving public policy, in collaboration with our colleagues and program it to? Are we doing that successfully through the communications function? But then I'll say, you know, look, there's that pesky little word chief. Unknown Speaker 2:12 And what that means to me is really, you're you're a manager, and I'm a manager. And at the end of the day, I always think about what did I do for the team today, we all have a to do list, we have things we have to get done lots of stuff in our inbox. But I tried to save some time every day to think about how I think someone have recognized someone, was there something kind of off the rails I should put my attention on? Unknown Speaker 2:39 How is the organization doing on leadership and management and culture? So you have to save some time for that, that piece that is beyond the functional purview, but has to do with just, you know, how you're helping people in the organization. Thinking about that, the chief and the management part? I mean, what does your team look like how's it broke down, I mean, as silos of expertise, or departments, or whatever we might want to call them. So we are, as you will know, but we'll explain for your listening audience, we're really lucky appear to have a great team. It's in house, I call it an in house PR agency, sort of a mid sized PR agency. Unknown Speaker 3:25 And we do have different teams that but they work really cross functionally, we have a team that just focuses on institutional communications, we have a whole set of many people that focus on program communications, who are what we call embedded within program areas, who if you kind of use that agency model, they're almost like the client lead on a particular topic or research area, working hand in hand with people on the program side, we have a team of really talented writers and editors and an editorial function. We have a nother team of really talented people in creative and digital, including multimedia and a small but mighty group of project managers. Unknown Speaker 4:07 So we are well resourced, and we can do a lot internally, which is pretty amazing, incredible suit, just for definitional purposes, institutional communications. What does that mean is that anything that happens with inside of the organization rather than without or not is, it really means things like who's who's thinking about executive communications for the CEO or other leaders when it might be across topic areas who's looking at our institutional media monitoring when Pew is mentioned as an organization versus a topic area. We also create things like our own podcast after the fact through the institutional team, they can take a really wide lens and look at everything the organization's doing, including the Pew Research Center, which is a subsidiary, with its own operations by Unknown Speaker 5:00 at all those kinds of things, and then we, you know, create a couple of magazines. So those types of things where it may not be completely owned, let's say by one area of the organization or another, really falls under the purview of what I would call institutional communications. And so just for our listening audience to and I think we're in this stage where people are evaluating what they've done with their careers, where they are, with called the Great resignation is what was happening recently. And now we're walking into a new recession. I hear two sides of this. Unknown Speaker 5:37 One too many, I think, you know, what was your career path like leading to becoming a chief communications officer, like a lot of people in communications today? Well, maybe not the kind of newest employees who I meet, you seem very passionate about communications early on in a career, I was not sure that was what I was going to do. I was an English major at the University of Washington, really into books writing, reading, was thinking about publishing world or magazines. But that didn't really align with the economics at the time. And I got my first job in San Francisco in a corporate affairs department, Unknown Speaker 6:18 and realized that I really liked it and did a lot of writing for an employee newsletter at Bank of America, which was going out to 160,000 employees worldwide. But you know, with that job was was I worked under a very talented former San Francisco Chronicle editor who helped me write better. Unknown Speaker 6:39 And then I learned I learned communications really on the job. Like so many of us do, and learned Media Relations on the job, made some mistakes, you know, and Unknown Speaker 6:51 understood kind of what better anyway, anyone can make a mistake any day, but understood a little better, what to do, what not to do. Unknown Speaker 7:00 But then for a while, you know, went back to grad school, I was thinking about a career kind of an international relations. But what I realized was I liked the blending of communications and policy, that was the thing that I really enjoyed the most. So even though I'm a Californian, still, I'm at heart, I stayed in DC, because this has a place that's really rich, if you enjoy public policy and working in organizations where you can make a difference in some way through communications. This is a very sweet spot to be. So spend some time in government. I had worked at Brookings, and then you and I met at Pew, of course, many years ago. Unknown Speaker 7:40 Thank you for that. Yeah, I think, I think one thing you had said, there's really important for anyone who's still in the middle of their career, early parts of their careers, like you're learning as you do. Yeah, I feel like that gets, I don't know, downplayed a lot. Maybe because I, there's conferences I would go to, and they have trends, their tracks for the accidental techie here, quote, and I'm like, Are you REALLY accidental? Or you're just learning, like, given, you gotta get your hands on the system and use it right and get some mentorship? It's, I think that's a great point, Tony, I think, you know, that's where the fun is, particularly in communications today. And I know you're someone who's always been thinking about kind of what's next? And where's the field going? What should we be thinking about? I think if you're not still learning, no matter what stage you're in, in your career, then something you kind of have to think about being curious again, about new things. Because communications just continues to evolve. And certainly I wouldn't consider myself as well versed in some of the technologies you are some of your colleagues are things like that, or my colleagues in digital. But I certainly hope that I can learn enough about things to make sure I'm helping people make the right choices for the organization. And that's where that learning has to come in, you know, so that you can see the sides and make make good and informed judgments. Yeah, I think you summed it up, right? Curiosity has to project and it gets us all through the next several years everything. communications field itself changes at such a rapid clip, because the technology is just so fast. But then, you know, I think we're going to dive into a little later we were talking earlier to some of the trends for organizations that are shifting, like how do we work differently? What's happening if you're not curious and slightly resilient? Or, you know, afraid to get your hands on? It's like, those are skills we all need these days? Unknown Speaker 9:31 Definitely. Unknown Speaker 9:32 The the tech changes so fast, it's it's interesting that you had talked about that too. I mean, my slight tangent there. I think there was a time when the technology itself, we were all working to understand it and how to deploy it. And then to the where you start your career with a writing how to get a message, how to create it. I feel like that back to the basics. We're now maybe the technology is in the background finally, helping us work better Unknown Speaker 10:00 rather than us working for the technology, like the hammer, I know what to do with it, I know when to deploy it. And I'm pretty effective and I need to get a nail, you know, into a wall. It's I feel the same thing with like, email marketing automation CRM system, CMS is we all kind of understand it now. And it's really about how do I package the message. But if you can't write, and you can't get that creative part down, you know, the thing that we're all trained that sort of old school comes, right, right, it's taken the forefront again. So I think I want to talk about data, you know, and what role data plays in decision making with your organization. And you had also said, Unknown Speaker 10:38 I wrote down, you had talked in the beginning, too, about, you know, are we moving the needle on public policy? So I'm very curious about what how do you use it for decision making? How do you use it to track things like whether you are having? Unknown Speaker 10:52 Well, as you will know, unlike a lot of other organizations, particularly nonprofits, while there's a lot of data, you know, if you're pulling your data and you're looking at your data, it can, it can almost be overwhelming. So the thing is, you know, definitely rely on people on my team who know how to make sense of it, and how to surface the important lessons, because that's where the value is, I think we are always looking at and we do monthly reports, we do quarterly reports, we do case studies. Unknown Speaker 11:22 What did we learn, but like kind of what was the genesis of what was going on? And that's where I think the interesting findings are that are potentially applicable, sometimes you just have that one thing that happened and was a bit magic. But other times, you can see, okay, we were really good about sharing content through stakeholders, or this media piece really lead to a lot of people coming or viewing something or the newsletters which are significant drivers for queue of traffic to our site or social media, what are we learning about how we are, Unknown Speaker 12:01 shall we say, kind of crafting the content to be more effective are there are times when a photo is better than a charter graphic, or for this particular audience, say state policymakers, which we communicate with a lot. They really want that graph with the data right there. That's going to be more effective. So I think that's also a continuous learning cycle. Unknown Speaker 12:28 And one, you know, to use that word again, you have to remain kind of always curious about, what did we do there? Oh, there was a little bit of paid money put behind that Well, that went gangbusters. Why did that thing? Was there something going on there that we could learn from and start sharing across the organization? Now, I think on the flip side, and I remember you and I would talk about this in your days, a few, you also have to be careful with data that you don't lift one thing up as the thing that now everyone should do. Because you know that there's also a challenge. And that, you know, you might have a success doing something a couple of times, but does that mean that's now a template or a model? So really going back to first principles of audience goals? Like, why are we doing what we're doing? Who are we trying to reach with this? And therefore, what what are the tactics that makes sense? And what did we learn? Yeah, I mean, the rather than even just precision points for to build a template, it's like, what are the trends across time when we were doing something? How is that evolving? Your golly, you can get more data now than you could before? I always I'm curious for your thoughts on this. Now, too. I have called it the communications burden, but without the communications budget, which is because of the access with the tools that communications departments and teams often work with, you're collecting a lot of data and there's pre built templates, and then it starts to get this expectation that now you're becoming a de facto reporter for the organization. And Unknown Speaker 14:03 was that really what you set out to do? But then most comms teams I work with? It's like they're getting budget for data. So there's this heavy pressure on it without the budget? I don't know if I'm making a statement or have a question for it. Unknown Speaker 14:15 Either way, it's your thoughts on that. Unknown Speaker 14:18 I agree with you. And I think, you know, we have to think about data to what purpose particularly in this day and age so you know, we we do have reports we produce regularly. And I read those every time and I'm looking for certain things, but to your point about trendline is really important. So at the end of that phase, whatever your phases the year six months or quarter, like what did you really observe and people would is particularly an organization like pew that is very data focused, you know, we like facts. We like research, we use data in all areas. Unknown Speaker 15:00 of our work. If you put up a data analysis or a point to teams internally about what we learned, I really want to be able to share the story around that so that people can put it in context again. Otherwise, all you've done is kind of share one more data, that may not mean something at the end of the day. So okay, you had 10,000 website visitors to that piece of content. Great. Do we know anything about where those people came from? Who are they? I mean, often we don't, right? I mean, that's just the nature of data, you may kind of have a general sense. But what can we say that amounted to? Did we have any impact? Did anything change over time? That's all the kind of qualitative stuff you have to get to into eventually in public policy. It's not just engage the audience or reach the audience for its own sake, it's like to what end? And were we successful in that in collaboration with our colleagues at the end of the day? Unknown Speaker 16:01 Yeah, I've always felt part of the burden was that a lot of the tools we were using to collect and share data information, Google Analytics, especially, I mean, they were designed for media companies that cared about eyeballs, because that's how they got a Unknown Speaker 16:15 couple cents, right back up ad when the model is not the way that nonprofit policy organizations and most nonprofits work. So how do you take what's in front of you and flip it to what matters for what you're doing? And the qualitative part becomes very important context? Is everything, right? Like a number without context is, you can do anything with it really? Sure. And you and I were having an interesting kind of sidebar about trust, right? And earlier conversation and in the nonprofit space, particularly for organizations like pew that are working on public policy issues, and we're staunchly nonpartisan, if you're not trusted by the audience's you're reaching, then you haven't done your job well, right. So you know, again, it's, it's not just reach for reaches sake. It's like, what are we trying to do with this content? Where are we putting it? Unknown Speaker 17:09 Are we saying this in the right way to reach people who maybe we haven't traditionally reached? And as you and I were talking about polarization is indeed a thing. And you may have a point of view on how we should express something, but you kind of have to step out like you and I were talking about and think about other audiences around the United States or around the world, depending on where you're communicating? How will this be perceived? That takes time and thought and it particularly in this day and age, it means checking assumptions? Trying to be more inclusive, diverse, you know, there's a lot of things now that Unknown Speaker 17:50 everyone wants to move really fast in the state of communications is indeed a very fast paced world, but like, you also have to be thoughtful and rigorous, to remain trusted. Unknown Speaker 18:01 Yes, to all of that we have over the last year, it's been interesting. Unknown Speaker 18:08 To phrase I need to diversify my audience has been something people have been coming to us a lot more with. And sometimes it's what's in my database. And can I create segments? How would the segments look? Sometimes it's no, I need to reach into new areas. And I'm like, Well, no one just shows up to some random Playhouse and jumps on stage and starts talking really loud, because you're hoping that people in that neighborhood will now like your theater art, you know, you gotta go and see where it's at. You got to think about it. There's, it's an investment to another, like social media listening, natural language processing, what are you using the language of the groups that you're trying to get? You know, more conversations rolling with, you can't come in and be like, let me just change everything real quick. Right? You need to speak my language as I'm coming in. Right, right. Or listen a little bit, you know, I'm always like, maybe just listen a little bit. Maybe you don't need to be the loudest voice. Just listen to what other people are saying first. Exactly. You know, people appreciate that. Unknown Speaker 19:06 Sometimes it's the truth. Even today. Yes. Yeah. The measure that because you're making me think as you're talking to you, you had said to two words one you brought up the impact that elusive impact. What does impact me and and then just the measure of trust, Yeah, cuz you and I were talking about this and thinking a lot about Unknown Speaker 19:24 Yeah, what is a measure of trust you'd have Unknown Speaker 19:28 there's those indicators scales or whatever they call them. The rankings you can do for people give you feedback, but what does that really tell you? Right, it's it's more of how somebody takes your materials and is willing to then promote it is always what I thought like, if they're promoting pews work, they've trusted pew because you've become part of their brand and they're putting that brand forward and then it starts to move the needle goes, but I don't know. Do you have a thought on how you can measure trust besides Unknown Speaker 19:57 rebroadcasting beyond traditional kind of audio Unknown Speaker 20:00 As research stuff, which we of course do, but Unknown Speaker 20:05 I think one of the greatest hallmarks of it that we can observe Unknown Speaker 20:10 has to do with someone either citing the research, or bringing forward an idea, or recommendation that may have come from us. And, you know, we're not people who get hung up on credit. I mean, it's always nice to get a citation. But if, if our job is to help influence policy, and the policy is influenced or achieved, or the recommendations are advanced, and our name, isn't there, no, he's okay with that. Some aren't. But but we are because I think it's about kind of making the difference at the end of the day. So in communications, of course, I love I love to see the name right, or I'd love to see our spokespeople quoted. But I'm also really happy about an editorial that completely shares our recommendation, or our data, even with without a citation, you know, it's a quiet win, but equally important, and that's, that is, you know, you were saying that elusive world of influence impact. And it can it is just much harder to measure. You have to be paying attention to the environment, and how are things getting conveyed? Are you breaking through it all? In the way people are talking about an issue, even if it's not something that's going to pop in my clip search that day? Told you bid rundowns tend to set just Unknown Speaker 21:37 I love that ethos about pew? I mean, it's been personally those are my two I didn't ever really cared about the credit of the thing got done, right. It got put out there. There's so many the nonprofit space still big, like in the sense of there's a lot of them here in the US, multiple groups working towards the same causes. And in my head pre pandemic, I was like, mergers and acquisitions, like what's going to happen there, where what's the funding looking like? And then coming through this, like, is there a way but not to go too far? No, but I think your point of, well, hey, if we're, if that group gets it out, but I was supporting that, too, but let me be supportive and be happy for them, and then keep pushing out where I can on my side. So if we all move the thing forward instead of Well, I didn't get a name on it. Yeah, there's something there, I think, yeah, you're right. And I think you can see that in the nonprofit field now particularly think about some of the big partnerships that are happening. And he's involved in a couple of them. And during Earth and blue Nature Alliance are a couple. But we're we're working with other large NGOs, and we're pulling together in partnership to advanced things. Each of us may be doing something an area of the world or a particular thing that we are, maybe have comparative advantage in. But there is power in the sector coming together. Unknown Speaker 22:58 And to your point, that wasn't always the model that I think it is becoming more of the norm, as people are realizing there's a lot of synergy across the goals we're all trying to achieve. So you're better together when you're working on those things. So we're dipping into my trends question. I think we should just keep going with it. So Unknown Speaker 23:17 does this feel like an emergent trend? Or was this type of stuff happened before? Because it pre pandemic when I was at Pune, we still had partners, you know, we would pull in to work with but is it becoming more prevalent now? Does it feel more necessary to move the needle in the crazy heavyweight world we're living in at the moment? Yeah, I always hesitate to say like, my experience is the trend right is only looking at one one facet of it. I mean, I would say from pews experience, it is becoming more of the way we are looking at things over time. Who can we be working with? Who can come to the table who's already at the table we should be partnering with? Unknown Speaker 23:57 You know, that look that includes local communities, indigenous native leaders in groups, and how else should we be thinking about partnership in a writ large way? I think there is a movement there now. But again, I'd say that's, I think something I've observed in the way we're doing business. Now. It could be different for other organizations, depending on your issue area, particularly. Yeah, I mean, not 100% corollary but the way I think about it with Parsons TKO, I mean, we're not huge, and we really focused on our consulting services, data technology alignment, but we don't build software anymore. We don't say like, who are my shoulder service organizations that when I go in, I know them, I could trust them. We could look bigger together and we can come in as a unit to solve something that's bigger than any one of our smaller words together could get done. I don't Unknown Speaker 24:52 know if that fits exactly to the nonprofit model, but my head goes there a little bit. Unknown Speaker 24:56 You have such a great purview and the nonprofit Unknown Speaker 25:00 that space since you talked to so many different people, I mean, do you? Have you observed some of that changing that people are now thinking more about coming together with other partners over time? No, no, Unknown Speaker 25:15 I haven't. I think it's because you and I were talking, I think there's just a de organizational level. The other trends like I think a lot of groups are still struggling with how are we functionally working? What is my return to office policy? When am I in the office? Am I Am I still tired from being remote? Unknown Speaker 25:33 So I don't know if you have thoughts on that I told you about how a visit I was at in New York City. And it was me and just one other person and three floors of an entire new york space, which was creepy, but actually struggling, you know, people are still struggling. It's it's a fascinating, yet very difficult time. Still, for us hybrid. We're trying to figure that out with a lot of kindness and caring over the summer, everyone's family situations, personal situations are different. Just try I'm trying to get there together, the value of time in the office for me is completely different than it used to be, you know, like, I used to just go in the office trying to get as much done as possible. If kids I was trying to get home, I had responsibilities at home. And I love talking to my colleagues, but I wasn't doing a lot of kind of watercooler chit chat. I was, of course, saying hello and having fun with my colleagues at work. But I was pretty focused on getting through the day and getting home to the next the next shift, if you will, but now I've I've completely rethought that so when I when I go in now, I'm trying to have a more free day, I want to walk around and try to see people I want to just have conversation and catch people when I can catch them. And and it's so much more rewarding than a scheduled meeting where everyone feels very formal about it. It's like, Hey, you want to walk out and grab a cup of coffee? And you can just be like, how are you in in a more real way. And so that's, that's different. And it's forcing me to think you know, about how I use my time differently to and hopefully for the better. Like, you know, you often don't put like chitchat with colleagues on your to do list. But that's, that's where the importance of being in the office is now. When I was a PA did we make it up to there was like three tiers of meeting and one of them basically was the chitchat meeting. It was you don't need an agenda for this one, you could stop and talk to people. It's okay. Right. It's how do we bring that back? I think there's been so many documentaries about the fall of we work and whatever has happened. But I, I think the models coming back around because in the sense of I think people need collaboration spaces to go to. And because no one's gonna come hang out in my back house with me and want to sit around and whiteboard. like it'd be weird for them. Maybe weird for me. But if they're, if we have those and I so I'm curious, you know, if that's a trend to where office space becomes collaboration space, where are you then because to get back to trust, you're building trust with your colleagues that now I won't see you again, maybe in person for a month. But it makes the online interaction on whiteboarding so much easier, because I know you in a different way now, right? I think it matters. I mean, I know there have been studies done on it, I have listened to a couple podcasts myself on sort of this notion of how do you build trust in professional relationships. And the results do improve when people trust each other is sort of one of the bottom lines. So you have sort of that even a soft relationship. You know, maybe you're not going to lunch once a week, but you've had conversations, you've broken through the tasks, you have some credibility with each other where you can work to solve a problem. And you know, more importantly, even I think, you can disagree in a conversation, but in a way that is productive and leads to a better result. Because often I think people want to shy away from that and will accommodate or be polite, but really have a different point of view. But getting to that different point of view and being able to have that conversation because there's trust, they're like, Well, hey, I'm thinking about this way. What do you think about that? Or do you disagree? Like, that's a very important conversation to have that generally leads to a better outcome, I think, and you don't, you don't have that in a great way. You know, in the virtual world, you can have it, it's just not as ideal as being in person is my in, in my experience. You can still do it. It may not feel as great. So yeah, I think you're right, these kinds of collaboration opportunities. And I was telling you about a conference I was at last week where it was like, just the opportunity to sit with a colleague in between sessions and over a cup of coffee and bounce ideas back and forth. That would not have happened for us at least virtually after conference with Unknown Speaker 30:00 Both would have like exited the thing and gone back to whatever else we had to do. And maybe lost that moment of creativity or inspiration that came to us. Those are the things that are really hard to capture. You don't always know what you're missing now, until you have it and then you're like, Oh, I was missing that. That was great. That meant a lot. Yeah, the impromptu debrief, I was I had mentioned to you earlier, too, it's, it's one thing we brought in our company because we've been distributed. I've since remote is not the right word. Since there's no locus, it's distributed, we've been distributed for the whole time. Not necessarily a purpose at first, but the thing that was one of the things we learned is that instant debrief, like someone will just open a Zoom Room after whatever just ended. And if you can make it great if you can't, great, but for every time I've done it, it's really helped me process my thinking. Mm hmm. wrote that one down, I'm gonna I'm gonna steal instant debrief. I like that a lot. Unknown Speaker 30:55 So other trends to just organizationally right, in the nonprofit space? Curious for your thoughts? A in early in the pandemic? Is it the death of the city, I don't think that's true. But the office as a locus of all the business, you know, if you're hybrid, and you started to have more remote, my head goes to Well, now you've got different presents in different parts of the country you didn't before. So there's probably a benefit to that where Bobby is in Colorado, and you did want to talk to this other group in Colorado, and maybe Bobby can go meet them and right, and it's they can hang out at one of the afterwork things or breakfast in a way that you couldn't if everyone was just in DC, it would be this very formal meeting when you showed up in Colorado, rather than starting from the other place. Is there a trend there that we think everyone's going to have to force their staff back to their original cities? Because a tax purposes? Or are they going to let people start to be remote? Wow, I don't know, Tony, that's the question. I think there's going to be a few variations on this, you know, like the pendulum has swung all the way to remote. And now we're kind of inching back to hybrid will people get sick of this and really want to be around people again, and in offices, maybe not everyone, but I, I hear some growing interest enthusiasm for that, as people are sort of tiring of some of the balance acts they're doing at home, or kind of feeling maybe lonely, and like they're not connecting enough with the people they're trying to do their jobs with. So do we end up sort of somewhere in the middle? And what's I think it's each organization is grappling with, what's your business need? You know, do you how often do you really need people and for communications that may be different than other functional areas? I mean, I think, again, mass generalization, but communications, people tend to be pretty creative. And they do get sparks from each other as they're talking about things and engaging ideas or trying to figure out how to pitch something or messaging like, Oh, I like that word. And I hadn't thought of that there's, there's a real energy and flow that can happen, that I've observed with teams when they're coming together and building off of each other. So kind of how do you start to deploy that in the right way while allowing people opportunity to maybe recharge outside of the office? Like you and I were talking about kind of what people are now saying, like, what's the point of going into an office space, I'm going to sit on a team's session have a whole day of teams meetings from nine to 230. And then I'm exhausted, but I didn't talk to anyone sort of like, yeah, that's a valid question. Right. So what how do we how do we talk about the value of the office in a different way? It's not just where we go anymore. Like we used to just don't do it. Unknown Speaker 33:41 Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm hopeful that I these are conversations I'd like to start hearing more about because I, I feel like everyone's still been a little bit in the panic of how do I just function and get everybody through? And I think, I think you're onto it there. I think that's the next piece like what? What's the value in the operation and the function with the physical space when we were together? I liked it. I have one more idea trend I want to throw at you and see what you think. Because you had mentioned newsletters been very successful for you. And I'm, I'm seeing that everywhere. In I've always been a proponent of it like because you own those email addresses. Somebody said, Yes, you can get the information to Unknown Speaker 34:20 social media to I've been meaning to write about this. I think we have the social media problem in the nonprofit space, which is that some of these platforms have been shown to be very damaging, health wise to people. And we're saying, but please give us your money through the platform. Right? What? What's your thought on the balance between social media or even using social media to create groups, but I feel like there's something coming back in the form of community, smaller groups that might maybe do kind of know everybody in it and then newsletters because it's, I really want to know what he was telling me about. So I'm signing up to this thing, so they keep giving it to me. Mm hmm. Are we moving? Yeah. Where do you Unknown Speaker 35:00 getting more and more newsletters less newsletters, audios social breaking news. And and Tony decided Unknown Speaker 35:08 that can be your headline. I don't think we're done with social yet. Social to me is a broadcast platform. It is mass sharing. Yes, there are groups and there is community on social for sure. But I think about it as a why lens, Unknown Speaker 35:27 newsletters a little less. So I think you're right people have said I really care about this issue, I want to see this, even if they're regularly opening or not regularly opening are only looking at a couple of things. But I read a ton of newsletters, I bet I'm not alone in that. It's the way I curate news and information on a whole host of holistic topics. I'm interested now in also thinking about more direct communication, because because of the sheer an immense flow of information that's out there, and particularly for when we care about policymakers, or really key stakeholders who we know are getting a ton of information, how do you would get it it's relationship and trust, what can you provide to people that allows them at different perspectives? That's not a email newsletter that's going to 30,000 people, but like, what, what's that next element that allows you to engage with people in a different way, but yet in their own time when they want to pull it down and be ready for it? So there's there are other things I think we're trying to figure out. Are there areas we haven't previously done as much in that we could do more? And what does that look like? And who's the audience? How do we cultivate it? Who's reaching out to them on what frequency but I think it's a natural reaction. You know, even to events, I was having a great conversation with a friend of mine in London who's saying, look the premium on going to an in person event now. Now, it's like you don't want to just join a big conference where there isn't going to be some sort of personal engagement or really rich conversation. Because if you're just going to watch a panel, you feel like you could do that at home, maybe while you're multitasking. Right? This is what's happened. So now how do you craft an event that really has meaning to people and allows you to kind of have that dialogue and influence that you're hoping to have a different place for the 400 person zoom thing than there is for the 10 person dinner? What's in between? How do we think about that going forward? So I think all that I think COVID has has changed that a lot for organizations thinking about those types of issues. Thank you for bringing up the event. So I yeah, I've been thinking for a long time. Like there's like a new content type is what you do for your online webinar. Like To your point, it's so different than I'm going to have four panels speakers that will DC style, right in person in this room, there is going to be coffee in the back. It's not it's not suddenly accessible to everyone because we open to Twitter, or it's just streaming out like we know we can do streaming online very differently than Yeah, I think that's yeah, that's the trend that I'm glad you brought it up. That's the one everyone's got to be figuring out for a while I wrote at the end of last year, I think for certain groups too. And like, they need to start thinking about the marquee event that they can own. And when and like what is it that you can host that no one else does, because people are going to want to your point, experiences with these events. And a lot of the policy groups, they could do it. I mean, for anyone listening who's out in the audience, maybe who's from a funding organization, I desperately want to see more in the Global South, if anyone could start to you know, I'm sure there's some great events down there. I'm just not aware of myself that are probably out there. But how do we promote more? There? Yes, the events. Awesome. All right. We got through, we got through a lot of trends. I have one, one mental bone to pick though. So I want to I want to pull it out. It's not a bone to pick with you. It's just communications writ large and in general. All right. Because we talked about your we talked about the breadth of your team, the types of roles, all the different work that goes into it. You're talking data software development and PR. Yeah, I've talked about it with a couple other guests on the show, too. I mean, is the communications umbrella too big? Or is this just what it looks like? Right now when we really do have technical software development, project managers, comms preview and PR folks that are going out and making relationships with news reporter beats? Right. That's my theory of it is that I would like to see at least in in the communications team at Pugh broad and deep and like so and I think there's strength in that. I guess I want to see people who have who can do a little bit of everything. Unknown Speaker 40:00 who can write, who can pitch who know enough about digital communication, social media, enough about paid to be able to come to a table and do strategy. And they don't have to be an expert in all those things. But you know, well rounded communications person, I believe there's still a really strong need for that. Then I do like to see people who really have a specific area of expertise, who are going to be that person that go to on a on a, either if it's a tech thing, or a paid strategist or the brilliant photographic mind, or, you know, the brand guru. So I see it still being a pretty big umbrella. Tony, you know, I know there are organizations that talk about Mark calm, like the blending of Marketing and Communications the page, so it talks about that. Unknown Speaker 40:58 You know, I think in the corporate world, you often hear battles between the Chief Marketing Officer and the chief communications, who has budget who has role and responsibility. But in the end of the day, I think for those of us in the nonprofit space, when you're just trying to think about reputation, and moving the needle, as we talked about, and doing the right thing for your teams, it's, it's still a blend. I personally think that's where the fun is. I mean, I'm just one of those people who likes to know, and this is why I love communications, every day is a little different. You know, we might get a interesting press call today, or we might have to deal with a small crisis, or we're advancing this plan, or someone had a brilliant new idea today. And we're off on this kind of creative endeavor, or thinking about a new initiative or a new product. I think that's where the fun is. And I think a lot of people share the same view. That's what makes it kind of creative and energizing. And then you need a lot of different skill sets at the table to execute. But I'm hearing skepticism. I'm hearing skepticism from Tony Kopetchny. What do you know? Unknown Speaker 42:03 I ain't good. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I could see, I could see your point how it all comes together. What I'm really fixating on, though, I had it as a question. And I took it out. I was actually in a meeting once, or someone slam their hand on a table and was really upset that I was referring to a comms unit as by using the word marketing Unknown Speaker 42:25 as like, Oh, okay. Unknown Speaker 42:29 That happened. But you use the word Mark common. Unknown Speaker 42:34 is they're functionally a difference in the nonprofit sector between? I don't know. Yeah. Interesting. I hear I hear more people use it interchangeably. But cautiously to your point, I think in the past, like, particularly in the nonprofit space, like marketing was a bad word, right. Unknown Speaker 42:52 But I don't think it is. Let me Let's talk for a second about like, the total demise of organic content, and how hard it is to reach people, and how more and more nonprofits are just trying to get a very small amount of money, you know, sometimes just a couple of $1,000 over the course of the year to boost posts, or try to make sure that audiences they really care about or actually seen the content, they're putting so much time into creating. Now look, we could have the whole art, you know, conversation about is that model good for the world or not given your previous point about social media and kind of what some of the trends there and how it's affecting people. But the reality is, if we just talk about the true ecosystem right now is, is that's how people have to think about it, and communications. And ideally, people in our field right now need to know enough about it. You don't have to be a paid strategist, but know enough about it to understand the value of doing those kinds of things for your content strategy. Right. And then to your point earlier, Tony, look at the data later, and figure out if didn't get you anything that you wanted? Did it get you random visitors? Or did it did? Were you targeted and strategic about it? And did it get you kind of in front of the audience you were hoping to reach in a way you wouldn't have before? That's always the question. Yeah, it feels such a confluence of two and the whole Parsons TKO, we came up with the term Engagement Architecture. Unknown Speaker 44:21 Several two reasons. One, I always hated digital ecosystem as a word and like, it's not really right. But the other thing is like, it's not just outreach just for attention, like we talked about with it's not just eyeballs because you get a impression, two cents for it. It's how do you actually get a group that's going to then engage with you? So like, what is your conversion on when you put something out? And how are you getting a follow up to your point? And how do I start to tailor the follow up to you because you've been to my site nine times versus the person who came once and how do I create the whole machinery around it? So that's where like the mark com side I'm like, yes, it's marketing in a sense, because you need the tech Unknown Speaker 45:00 go around it, but you need good comms outreach, but then it's like, I gotta get Bobby to keep coming back. Right? Right. And understanding the engagement model, like you're talking about, you know, people have traditionally talked about the funnel, right? And how are you bringing people into the funnel so that they're re engaging. But I remember you and I had conversation years ago, it's not just a funnel, right? Because you want them to keep coming back. So it's not like they just dropped back Unknown Speaker 45:25 into the giant pool, but you want to do is, is continue engaging that audience or cohort around the lifecycle that is valuable to them. But why is it valuable to them? Well, then you have to know something about, you know, and I know, that of course, is you know, the data world and privacy. And there's a lot of issues around that and using it for good and not for evil purposes. But, you know, if you know a little bit about your audience and what they're reading and why they like it, then you can be a smarter person in terms of the content you're sharing and producing. And if you get them more engaged, then it might bring someone back, I'm gonna put in the show notes and the conversation we had, I did eventually write my bubble gum Theory of Communication. Because the two rappers like the two funnels at the end, but it's the chewy center of engagement, where you get to keep people and then yeah, you got to link to that. Do you have a quote? Do you have a cool little drawing? Unknown Speaker 46:21 Yeah. Unknown Speaker 46:23 This has been awesome. Thank you so much for this conversation. I could talk with you for hours and hopefully we'll soon get to do this in person. And that's the conversation I do have. So for everyone who's been a regular listener, now, you know, we've created a Spotify channel where you can get all kinds of fun tunes for your runs or walks or just zone out while you're working. And so my last question of all my guests and is what is your go to song when you need it boost? And why? Sure, so this isn't like my pump it up. I'm going dancing song. This is my I'm a little down and I need to like get my head reset song. It's a song called Louisa by Lord her on. Unknown Speaker 47:04 My daughter's name is Louisa. And so we often sing it together in the car, and it's just a happy little song about finding love. But I originally heard it and loved it. And then I said, What's the name of that song? And my friend said it's Louisa. And I said, Well, it's meant it's meant to be that's kind of my song. So yes, very sweet. Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing all your insights with us today and for sharing your time with us. And thank you. It's great talking to me. Thanks so much. All right. Well till next time be well. Unknown Speaker 47:36 Thank you for listening. Join us again for more engaging ideas with your host Parsons TKO CEO Tony Kopetchny. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a comment and share with your friends. Send us your feedback at create change at Parsons tko.com. Transcribed by https://otter.ai