Outro  0:01  
Welcome to Engaging Ideas, the bi weekly podcast from Parsons TKO, bringing you conversations with mission driven leaders and luminaries to shift your perspective and challenge your assumptions on the art of the possible.

Tony Kopetchny  0:16  
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of engaging ideas, the Parsons TKO podcast where we like to explore all kinds of creative and fun ideas for the mission driven sector. And today, I'm utterly delighted to be joined by my friend Danielle huge who is serving as the chief personality Officer of more than words marketing, and she is also the founder of that company. Daniel, welcome.

Unknown Speaker  0:39  
Thank you so much excited to be here.

Tony Kopetchny  0:41  
I am excited to dive into this. So I've I did some researching and looking around, I've known you for a long time to put through your your LinkedIn profile there, you're listed as the chief personality officer. I don't see that very often. And I definitely want to dive into it. And I talked about that. And I began to lead into it. I got into screen a little while ago, looking at cars coming through 2020 into 2021, one of the top business priorities for organizations was trust, just the word Trust and like, that's really big and broad. So I am really fascinated to dive in today for the audience on bringing personality into our organizations and into our work. So thank you for being here. And all right, I found a quote on your website. And then I'm going to turn this over to you. But it says, and I loved it because I like to joke too because as I like to joke, I'm not just a founder, I'm a client. I'm the poster child for personality brand. I had no brand for the longest time I was a generic freelance copywriter. My business was Danielle Z, Hughes copywriting. I stood for nothing and worked with everyone. It wasn't until I woke up one day and decided to take ownership of my career. And subsequently my business, I hired a coach named my company and started writing my newsletter, that the idea for personality brand came to me that and some coaxing from my coach to be more me and go all in on me was the kick, I needed to put my full self into my message. That's awesome.

Unknown Speaker  2:11  
Whoever wrote that it's very challenging.

Tony Kopetchny  2:18  
So yeah, tell us about this evolution.

Unknown Speaker  2:20  
Yeah. Um, so it's interesting, because I've, I've always had like a very strong sense of self. But I think like most of us who kind of grew up and went into the corporate world, your self gets sort of muddied, and, and pushed down when you work for an organization, and you tend to just do whatever they tell you, right, you become the good corporate citizen, you toe the party line, there's not, you know, there isn't a lot of individuality that's asked for employees or there didn't used to be, I feel like that is definitely becoming much more common now. But when I grew up, kind of, like with you, same very similar ages, I think, is, you know, you just you couldn't really express yourself. So I think when I left corporate and decided to become a freelance writer, there really wasn't anyone saying you should like be the face of your business, or people want to know what you say about certain issues, it should just be, I'm gonna go out and I'm going to serve you and they're going to come to you because you have a skill set. And the problem with that is that if you serve everyone, you serve no one, right. So I realized that I needed to niche, but I didn't want to niche based on a vertical or a platform, because I enjoyed different types of companies. And I enjoyed different types of content. And so I didn't want to put myself into a box. But I also know that she say, I'll do all the things for all the people, nobody knew how to refer me. So through this process of, you know, working with my coach and creating my company, you know, I just sort of was like, What is my niche going to be? What's my focus going to be? And as we sort of started writing the content for my website, and I started to just strip everything away and put more of myself out there. This idea of personality brand came to light and how I define personality brand versus personal brand, is that the very word personal means private, right? So why are you sharing anything with the world? Like, why do we have to tell the world everything about ourselves, but our personalities who we are right, and it's already baked in? It's on display, and we tap in and out of our personality on a daily basis, and we just dial it up or down depending on who we're interacting with. Right? And so how do you put part of that into your business and into your mission message to create that trust that you were saying before, and to dis more importantly, to distinguish you from everyone else? Right, because a lot of us, right there's a lot of other writers out there. They're very talented. I'm not saying I'm better than them, but my approach is different and who I am is different and the right client I will respond to that, just like the right clients will respond to someone else. So it's about carving out your lane for who you want to work with, but also who's going to be attracted to you, and creating more symbiosis so that your message is doing the vetting for you, and that you don't have to wade through a whole bunch of nonsense, because everybody coming to you is already like, I like what you have to say. And I'm interested in learning more. That's awesome.

Tony Kopetchny  5:27  
Thank you, you know, for the nonprofits listening here. And I think this is really important stuff you're talking about? Because there are a lot of nonprofits, there are a lot of nonprofits that work in very similar issues, how do they stand out from each other? In the crowded field, but how do you express personality, that doesn't somehow conflict, don't think of a conflict with the mission, but express your personality within the mission of the organization to make sure you're, you're holding sacred, you know, because a lot of times, you're serving different people, and you don't want to say something or that might be mis taken out of context. But I don't know if you could talk to us a little bit of that a ways you could think about when you're in this, because a lot of nonprofits to events, really controlling the message. So, you know, what's my balance of bringing the personality letting people know, I really care about this, but not seeming exploitive, either to the people that we're trying to serve? I don't know if you've got thoughts on that.

Unknown Speaker  6:25  
I do. I mean, I work with a lot of nonprofits. And I think a lot of what happens with nonprofits is, you know, they start with this amazing mission, everybody's there to do good. But that mission, and the way they talk about it doesn't evolve over time. Right. So a lot of the language, as much as it's meant to be inclusive, it actually comes across as very exclusive. Right? It's not warm, it's not welcoming, it doesn't really speak to the community, it's all about them, and what they do, and the idea is to shift that focus back on the audience, to bring them into your mission and your message. And so it's not even always about like having to be so you know, personality is not about being big and bold, it's just about putting a little warmth and humanity into your message. And that's going to be different for a different type of nonprofit, depending on who you serve, right? If your audiences, you know, teenagers, you have to have a cool, you know, more like hip relatable language, vibe to your content. If you speak in academic jargon, and acronyms, you know, you're not going to be relatable to your audience. You know, if you're a nonprofit that's serving, you know, women, you know, are women going through something or whatever, you're going to have to have a vibe that receptive to women. So it's thinking about who you're talking to, more than what you are trying to say. And I think that's the problem for a lot of them. And also, you know, you become this like House of Cards, like every nonprofit, it's like, you start with like a small website, and then you just start building on it and building on it. And at some point, none of the messages are even sinking or cohesive, because you've just not really thought about the user experience, and you don't have time to step away. And coming at it from the insight to you're so close to it, that you don't possibly understand how other people are perceiving that message. So when you bring in outside help, whether it be a writer or designer, they can bring a different perspective on this is how people are seeing this message or this visual, and this is what's going to actually make them more likely to donate, volunteer, etc.

Tony Kopetchny  8:39  
I love that. So to earn your headset, it's not just about being big and bold, it's about the warmth and humanity. Yes, I think it's really important for anyone listening to hear that because it's not just the loudest extrovert in the room with the brightest colors that's that needs to get the attention. It's, I've been thinking about this a lot. I've talked to others about it, how do we get the humanity and creativity back into our work? It's okay to be a human being and have a moment with somebody else. That's, that's actually normal.

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
It's encouraged just okay. You know, and I, when I talk about personality, and a lot of people are like, Well, I'm worried about being professional. And you know, personality and professionalism are not mutually exclusive. Right? Professional doesn't mean formal. And I think so many people presume that professional means formal. And it's just about, again, just being more friendly. That's all that personality is, is just, instead of coming across as an entity, you're coming across, hopefully, as somebody who's written these words, who really mean has passion behind them, and can really welcome and invite someone in, as opposed to a more sort of like preachy sort of vibe that might come across from a lot of like academic or nonprofit language and to no fault of their own right. It's not deliberate, but just it's just the background of how You kind of grew up or what the organization started as. And then you just get stuck in this rut of speaking a certain way that's very formal and not friendly.

Tony Kopetchny  10:11  
Fascinating. Point two is I just think about, I worked in an organization where we had to wear suits and ties every day, it was a nonprofit. And then that's changed since and it was such a big deal that former colleagues of mine reached out to me to let me know that that wasn't what they had to do anymore. But I think about that in terms of what you're talking about in the formality, where we really think we're supposed to be at this level of formality when we come in, and it's even in the way people are dressing now it's starting to change. And I think if but I feel the tension in that. I was used to seeing suits, like, I don't know what to do when there's, I want to see that too.

Unknown Speaker  10:43  
Yes, and but I think also, it's like, you could still have standards, right? That's another thing, too, like this mistaken notion that if the language is less formal, you're going to not be taken seriously enough that it's not the case. And it's the same thing with how someone dresses. Now, I'm not saying that you show up to the office and like a ripped t shirt and like flip flops, like, I think there's some boundaries there. But I think it's more important what comes out of the person wearing the clothes and how they look. And it's kind of the same idea with your content, right, the message and how you're presenting yourself is more important than coming across as a know it all or thinking that you have to put all of these fancy words and to sound educated, when in fact, you're than just creating more distance between you and the reader, as opposed to making it relatable, digestible, for them to get to the crux of what it really is that you're trying to say.

Tony Kopetchny  11:37  
Thank you, I'm gonna I'm gonna pull another quote out. But this conversation is also making me think it was where I heard it, but I have to do sales. I built this company, I've got to reach out and do air quotes, sales, but I've never been an air quotes salesman. I just like to talk to people and solve problems. But it was interesting, because in the world of sales, or even in fundraising in the nonprofit space, did you hear the terms like b2c or b2b, and someone's talking about b2b And they're like, You never sell anything to any business. You're literally talking to another human being, there's no such thing as b2b. That's just where the checks might come from are coming from that person, but it's still the person you're talking to. So everything you're saying just resonates up and down. And I think for anyone, especially maybe in the fundraising, and communications outreach side of the nonprofits, it's even if you're trying to reach out to a certain foundation, it's still people in the foundation.

Unknown Speaker  12:29  
Yes, 100%. I mean, it's HGH, right, human to human. HGH. And, you know, I started out in corporate and television, and I was on the b2b side, and I was helping our, you know, sales teams go out and sell to potential advertisers. And even when I was putting together like media kits, and one sheets, you know, again, I realized I was like, I'm not selling to Ford, I'm selling to a person at Ford. And that person, even though they're not spending their own money, they're still making an emotional decision. And whatever you were pitching to them has to resonate with them. Great. And they have their brand in mind, of course. But that's always the first line of defense is that person that's making that decision. So I think it's interesting, you said that, because I've always, even when I started in b2b, I was like, it has to be friendly and warm, because this person is still going to want to be attracted to this message. You know, it's dry and boring, they're not going to be enticed. And it doesn't matter that it's not their money, they're not going to give it to you.

Tony Kopetchny  13:28  
It's truth. So I found another quote, from your appearance on The Daily ad brief, where you noted, we're moving beyond the personal brand to the personality brand, audiences are hungry for connection, and they're seeking out companies that offer humanity and relatability not just products and services. So we've talked to talk a little bit about the meeting. I couldn't agree more. But I'm just how that really could apply in the nonprofit sector. Just to keep driving in at it. And we talked about the professionalism, first formalism, the conflation, but, you know, how does this kind of start to manifest itself, in governance or within an organization when you need governance to sort of guide messaging, but then there's this drive, and we hear it everywhere, right? This is the time for authenticity. We have to be our authentic selves, this organization needs to produce content from these people that is paying to be here to sit within this governance and process machine to be authentic to you like how do you see all this sort of coming together? I think you're spot on. I think it's right. I think this is what people want, right as they want this personality, authenticity again, but how do we manifest it inside of organizations that have programs with departments and managers?

Unknown Speaker  14:42  
I mean, it's I think it's a lens right from which you have to come at your departments and messaging at and there has to be obviously buy in at the top for what is this refresh? And you know, most of the time you're not reinventing the wheel. You're not saying that there's something wrong with your money. Cheyenne, or your, there's anything wrong with your values, it's like a minor language tweak to just make them feel like refreshed and more engaged with who you're talking to. Right. And again, this usually just comes back to Everything was about us. And now we have to make it about them meeting the audience. So a lot of times, it's just a minor shift in language, it could be little things to just making your language more conversational, as opposed to, again, more rigid or formal. You know, internally, I think it really depends on the organization and how you want to go about it. But a lot of my nonprofit clients, I work with multiple departments. And you know, I started with one department, and then the other departments got wind of what I was doing, and saw the copy and was like, Oh, we like that, can we have her and then I would go to another department and then another, and then eventually, we redid like, their whole brand book, to make it again, like, here's what all of the departments stand for. So everybody still has their own purview and their own point of view. But it's all got to filter under the lens of the overall organization's mission. And then how does that relate to each individual piece. So each department knows who they're serving, and their audience might be slightly different, depending on the you know, the size of the company and what they're doing. But it's really about taking ownership of who you are, and who you want to reach and who you're talking to in a way that just feels more inviting.

Tony Kopetchny  16:35  
So in that example, were you the bridge between the departments to make sure there was some continuity between? Yes, the organizational continuity between the individual personalities, if you will, so that that really was on you to make sure that sort of float? Or is there somebody you were working with that was a champion stakeholder that was like, Hey, can you help me?

Unknown Speaker  16:56  
So there were multiple stakeholders, right? So you have the obviously the senior leaders and the CEO who have to sign off on everything, and but I interviewed stakeholders in each of the programs in order to understand their program, understand their constituents, figure out what they really do, and then was able to use that to kind of craft messaging that they all signed off on. You know, it's nothing is done in a vacuum. But nobody's you know, a lot of times with organizations too, you've got new people in roles that never didn't write this mission to begin with, didn't create this department. And now you have to, you know, get kind of shoehorned into someplace, and you've never had the bandwidth or the time to step back and think, Is this really what we're still doing? Has this evolved or changed? Should this evolve or change? So sometimes, when you're going through some an endeavor like this, it just makes you rethink and refocus? Is this still what we do? And if it is, is it as sharp as it needs to be? Is it as pointed as it needs to be? Is it as inclusive as it needs to be? Or can we get rid of some of these pieces and get more honed, and get more niche and get more focused on what we really need to do here?

Tony Kopetchny  18:09  
So we're talking departments and people that are working within the organization. But you know, a lot of nonprofits are driven and directed under a board of directors. So I'm curious what advice you could offer to someone listening that's saying to themselves right now, yeah, totally get this. There is no way that my board will get behind this. If you got some thoughts on that.

Unknown Speaker  18:31  
I mean, you have to make the business case to the board, right in the business case would be, if we don't change the way we're talking, we're not going to bring in as much money, right, that's the bottom line, we're not going to be as relatable, we're not going to grow, we're not going to be able to hire and attract the right talent. Right, if your message is, you know, older or antiquated or stodgy or muddled. It's only going to hold you for so long, right, your mission can be so amazing, and so big. But if you don't have the support around it, you're not going to attract the talent that you need, and you're not going to be able to get the audience that you need. So to me when since the board of directors is solely responsible for bringing in money. In most nonprofits, the easiest way to bring in money is with clear messaging that invites more people and invites more talent.

Tony Kopetchny  19:27  
I think it's super important what you just said there, and I hope it's resonating. And I'm sure a lot of the eyes thinks about this, but I feel like it's always overlooked. Like, you know, the brand goes out and everyone thinks, oh, it's the audience I'm trying to attract but you're also trying to attract the talent that could be working within your organization. And just the time we're living in whether I'm, if I read the news, and the news is telling me the truth, there's a lot of hiring happening and a lot of trying to get people in and a lot of competition for talent. But if you don't have the right messaging, you're probably not getting the right people towards your site. Anyways, You're not even getting them interested. So I just have everyone listening who's in that space thinks about, you know, the two sides to that. It's not just for people, you're trying to get to do something. It's something trying to bring them in. I think that's super important.

Unknown Speaker  20:12  
And most people that work in nonprofit are doing it, obviously not for the money, right? They're doing it because they care. So if your message is not saying to them, you should care about us, we're going to do you know, we're going to solve change the world or we're going to solve this disease or whatever it is, it's going to be hard to get the people in there that care passionately enough to do the good job. And then you're going to get people that are not doing a great job. And then that's going to affect your bottom line. And everything.

Tony Kopetchny  20:40  
Well, morale, too. It's like, how do we make sure the messages that are coming through with the authenticity, the personality has energy, and it's so often you can tell when someone is like, they wrote this newsletter, it was Tuesday, it had to go out on Wednesday, they just needed to find some links. And it just wanted the day to be over. Yeah, versus the like, wow, I can tell there's something infused in the language of this newsletter. And that's the one I want to write. It's like, they're talking to me. And this one, the other one was just, here's some stuff, go do some work, we can read it for you.

Unknown Speaker  21:11  
And none of this is a quick fix. I mean, this that I did with this, this one nonprofit, I mean, it took years of cultivating trust, on my end, right, working with the programs, and then getting the executive leadership team to buy in, and then getting senior management to buy in and then getting the program. It's, you know, this is it's definitely a challenge. But I think when you do it, and people start to see the results, and they start to see how much easier it makes their lives. Because if you have more clear language, and it's more conversational, it's easier for more stakeholders to start crafting that language. And so you don't just have to have one person in a department responsible for all the messaging, because now everybody can pitch in because it's easier. And it's more clear. And it's how they talk anyway.

Tony Kopetchny  21:57  
It's just I'm listening to this. And we're talking about language and writing. And but at the same time, we're talking about transformation. I mean, it's, we catch it, and we want to launch Parsons to Nate and I would talk about digital transformation. And it was like a lead balloon on the table man, like, eight or nine years ago. And that's quite honestly, for anyone listening. That's why we came up with Engagement Architecture is okay. But then it started to evolve. And then we got behind it figured it out. Now we're in the world where people get digital transformation, but I think they're catching so much of it often on technology. And it's not the technology. A lot of times it's the language you're using, it's the staff you have, it's the all the the governance and the pieces that go around it. So yeah, I really like what you're saying. And I think it's just another way that we're seeing the transformation within the sector come to fruition. And to your point yours, you know, we do our engagement road, you know, the technical roadmapping and the Engagement, Architecture, road mapping. And those are three year roadmaps on purpose. Because it's you're never going to it's not going to happen in six months.

Unknown Speaker  22:59  
Yeah. And it's no, you have to focus on the differentiation, too. Right? Right. So it's not just changing the language to change the language. It's like, how do we distinguish ourselves from others in our space? Right. And I don't like to use word competition, because I think there's room in the pond for everyone. But again, that you're just looking for a different audience, you're trying to attract different types of people. And a lot of it comes down to culture, right? The culture of the organization as well. And how do you articulate that and attract the people that are attracted to that culture, somebody else will get different types of people.

Tony Kopetchny  23:38  
So I have when I worked in house, I would be mostly in the communication side. So I'd been in branding efforts before from consulting side doing brand work and in house, staff persons being involved and doing it for my own company. It's interesting, we often sit around when we think about positioning, and we're like, what's the personality that we want the world to see as an organization, right? And then we could when I bring on and bringing on new marketing, folks, now I'm like, hey, look, this is the tone. This is this is the way we want to be seen. And then you'll see us write that way or talk that way. But I'm wondering, how often do you see that happen at an organization where they're like, our, our organization is x like, where we're the environmental group that's based and we're hip, or we're the one that you know, I actually liked digit don't say names, but uh, if you'd look at my LinkedIn profile, I obviously worked at the Pew Charitable Trusts. I kind of liked the heavy formality they brought as a brand mechanism, like, we're the group that can go to Capitol Hill tomorrow and get a meeting. And I think there was power in that. You know, and I always liked that. I think other people who work there, maybe we didn't see eye to eye on that part of the personality, but how often have you seen that happen? sort of at a top level, we say the word personality can be this and then actually successfully infusing that through the staff. So when they're out talking and they're out being themselves, they they're feeling authentically themselves not carrying necessarily the company line, it's a line that they can get on board with, if that makes sense.

Unknown Speaker  25:10  
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's almost like two different ways to two different conversations, right, because there's the personality of the organization, and then had a somebody talk to that, who maybe doesn't have that personality themselves. Right. And so you have your individual brand, right, your employee brand as a person, but that, again, has to go through the lens of the organization. So it's important for employees to understand what they're good at, and how they can use that to articulate and explain what the organization does. And it's not necessarily a dotted line, or, you know, it's not necessarily something that's going to connect immediately. But if you understand as an employee, first of all, why are you working at this company, right? Like, what's the reason that you got there, there's got to be some reason that you bought in to this mission and this voice. And then even if you are a different type of person than the personality of the company, the way you approach your job probably has something to do with the needs of the organization. So it's, there has to be flexibility to talk about it in your own way. And so I think, if you have like very heavy language, that might be hard for a lot of people to relate to and explain. But if your language is more warm and conversational, you give people a little bit more leniency to talk about it in a way that feels comfortable to them. And I don't know that that goes with everything. But like, if you're a very serious organization, you probably going to attract very serious people. So it should be, it should be easy. But you know, in nonprofit, I think it's going to depend because you have so many layers and levels, and it depends on the type of organization. Are you like, a lobbying organization? Are you academic? Are you, you know, a research organization or your charity? You know, there's so many ways to go about it. And you've got so many different types of people? I don't know, there's not an easy answer to that question.

Tony Kopetchny  27:18  
I think, you know, tying back to where you started with the could if you're inside of a corporation, you had to toe the line, you couldn't have your own voice. No, I felt that an organization's too. And I feel like with what you're doing here with personality brand, it almost takes the anxiety down. Like, oh, I could actually be myself.

Unknown Speaker  27:39  
I mean, the beauty is that now employee branding is becoming a very popular thing in organizations. And so I've been going into organizations, to help employees figure out who they are and what they do, so that they can better advocate for themselves internally, and get the right roles and assignments within the organization. And it doesn't take away from the company. In fact, it helps the company because they see employees that are more engaged, more confident, right, if these employees have stronger bios, it's going to attract more talent, their managers are going to know what to do with them, and what clients they should be interacting with. So I think we're seeing a very huge tide shift from what it used to be to now wanting individuality and wanting people to really understand their own value, and not just look at themselves as their job description, because we're all so much more than our job description.

Tony Kopetchny  28:33  
Amen to that. But can you just reading and listening a little more about what you're doing there? So, like, who calls you in? To do that work? And then what is it like? Are you doing workshops? Are you are you individual coaching with somebody?

Unknown Speaker  28:48  
So it's mostly workshops. Okay. Um, you know, I had done this previously with, I'll say, a very large, consulting firm. And I've done it with other organizations, but they bring me in to work with small groups of employees, and take them through a branding workshop. And so I give them materials. And we go about kind of rewiring your brain a little bit, right? Here's your job description. Here's, here's how you've given me your bio. This could be anybody. It's so generic. There's so much jargon, it's not clear. And then we break it down. And we say, what do you actually do? What are you actually good at? And how do we infuse that into your bio, or your elevator pitch so that when you introduce yourself and you talk to people, you are differentiating yourself from everyone else, but also showcasing what you do really well? And what your, what your personality is. So the you're gonna get hooked up with the right people, right? Because it's also about relationships. And if you're someone and this is also for quiet leaders, just for introverts, right when you're talking about but you know, the loudest person in the room, they might be more willing to Speak up, but you have people who are quieter and more introverted, and they've never really taken time to think about what they're good at. And then you kind of gently nudge them into owning what they're really good at and putting it out there. And then they start to believe that and get more confident. And then they can tell their manager, hey, you know what, you probably don't know this about me. But I'm actually really good at x. And so I should be doing these types of assignments, instead of what you've been traditionally giving me which is not my strong suit. Right? So it allows a little bit more autonomy. I can't think of a word right now. But it allows you to take more control of their own, take more control of their own career. And they do,

Tony Kopetchny  30:45  
well, I can just get that energy boosts right, like I'm not programming analysts to I'm Tony, and this is what I do. And maybe my shoulders go back and up a little bit more than next time I talk. And I can't imagine anything but good things for the nonprofit and the organization people are in when the staff feels confident in where they're at as a as a person. Yeah, this person, right? Yes.

Unknown Speaker  31:10  
And happier, right? If you are like, well, I can actually be a little bit more myself, right, I can talk about what I do on the weekends. And actually, a lot of times, what I find is that there's a direct correlation to how we perform our hobbies to how we perform our job. And like marrying those things to kind of also create some differentiation and distinction. And it's, you know, when when I talk about personality brand, again, it's not, it doesn't have to be anything overly private. But there's got to be something about, you know, the way you perform a hobby on the weekend, and how you do your job that's going to be compelling, and open up doors and conversations and allow you to start talking to people in the office with a little bit more comfort, as opposed to just work. And especially because of everything being so virtual, right, there's so much more of a disconnect. So if you can have a stronger bio, and a stronger sense of self, you're more likely to talk about that in in meetings and own up to it and step forward as opposed to just taking whatever comes your way.

Tony Kopetchny  32:12  
This is awesome. Thank you. This was I, my mind is flooded with great ideas, dude, I could really see the power of this for organizations really starting to think about how they do this for staff feeling empowered. Yeah, this really, it's about

Unknown Speaker  32:27  
attraction to right. It's not just retention, right? If you have, because when you're looking for talent, what are they doing, they're Googling and they're looking up bios, and they're seeing who works there. And if people have weak BIOS or unimpressive LinkedIn pages, it doesn't make you want to work there. Because it doesn't sound like they like their job. Right? There's this mistaken notion that, you know, we only update our BIOS and we're going to leave, but that's not the case anymore. You know, people leave because they don't like their manager. But if you embolden them to have this impressive bio, they're going to hopefully attract more people and again, hopefully want to stay and feel more empowered themselves.

Tony Kopetchny  33:03  
Yeah, I mean, it's reminds I feel like a photographer a little bit too like how do we get joy and creativity back into our nine to five jobs? I think human I like you said we're same generational I always felt the resumes tonight. Can you get up you know, the hump day means like, just gotta get through the week and TGIF and there's time like, I really like diving into some thick problems some time and I tell my wife I'm like I actually really enjoy what I'm doing right now. I don't mind sitting here for hours and she's like, I used to run the computer and do this for so long. And like I really enjoy it. It's like I'm having a good time. I don't know how to describe it and I'm lucky to get paid for it. So yeah, how do we get that joy back and and let us be ourselves within these organizations. Thank you so much for talking us through personality brand and what you do, we'll make sure there's a lot of links to your work in the shownotes and if anyone's out there interested, please reach out to Danielle so bring her in your org and start getting some work done so for anyone who's been a regular listener of the podcast at this point you'll know we started a Spotify channel with lots of great tunes to get you through your work week which you should be enjoying anyways but will boost your energy so Danielle my last question to all my guests it's your turn now. What is your go to song when you need a boost? And why

Unknown Speaker  34:24  
forgot about this question. The hardest one is and it made me think of there's that the the Friends episode where they do the they win for the apartment. And they asked like Rachel what her favorite movies like what's Rachel's favorite movie? And it's like she pretends to be it pretends to be like The Godfather, but it's really like Weekend at Bernie's or something like that's kind of how I feel or it's like the song that I tell you it is and then there's like a real song that it is. I embarrassingly love birthday by Katy Perry. It's just the most happy Boy is that it's so catchy, like It's so cheesy and I mean, it's got very like weird sexual overtones, but it's like just the most fun song. So I would say that it's probably like a good go to song.

Tony Kopetchny  35:18  
What's your godfather song?

Unknown Speaker  35:22  
The Godfather song would probably be maybe Beautiful day by you too. It feels a little bit more acceptable. Yeah, I might have to come back to you with like Rachmaninoff or something. But for now. For now, we'll just go with with you too.

Tony Kopetchny  35:47  
All right. Well, thank you for both those that we'll get into our Spotify mix both songs. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for joining us and for all your wonderful insights. It's been a pleasure thing. Great. I really enjoyed it. All right, Danielle. I'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Outro  36:04  
Thank you for listening. Join us again for more engaging ideas with your host Parsons TKO CEO Tony Kopetchny. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a comment and share with your friends. Send us your feedback at create change at Parsons tko.com.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai