Outro 0:01 Welcome to Engaging Ideas, the bi weekly podcast from Parsons TKO, bringing you conversations with mission driven leaders and luminaries to shift your perspective and challenge your assumptions on the art of the possible. Tony Kopetchny 0:16 Hello, everybody and welcome to another episode of Engaging Ideas the Parsons TKO podcasts. As always, I'm your host, Tony Kopetchny, and Parsons TKO, we are the Engagement Architecture firm. We are a digital consulting company focused on the nonprofit sector. And with this podcast, we like to bring you all kinds of ideas and innovations that you might be able to bring into your day to day work. Or maybe just feel a little less moment your day to day work hearing hearing about the struggles and triumphs of others within the sector. And today, I'm delighted to be joined by my friend nardus ala mayo. Welcome to the show. Unknown Speaker 0:53 Thanks, Tony. I'm so happy to be here with you. I love the work that Parsons TKO does, and I'm really excited to get into this with you. Tony Kopetchny 1:00 Yeah, right now notice is serving as the communications team manager for black future labs. And full disclosure, she used to also be our first Marketing Director here at Parsons TKO. So welcome back. Unknown Speaker 1:13 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you love the team. And yeah, I'm really excited to be here and get into this podcast. I know, you guys have had some great conversations. So Tony Kopetchny 1:21 does it feel weird to be on the podcast since you helped start the podcast? You know, we kind Unknown Speaker 1:25 of circle moment for me. Full Circle. Exactly. Full Circle? Tony Kopetchny 1:35 Well, I am utterly thrilled for you and your new roles. Congratulations. And along with the rest of the audience today, I'm excited to learn a lot more about Black features labs. And to get started, you know, last year, you had you put together a presentation that you delivered. And you know, the title there was telling black stories and white spaces. You and I talked a bit about that before you delivered it. I'm wondering if you could tell us sort of where the inspiration came from to give the talk? And what are some of the main points and yeah, what can you tell us about it? Unknown Speaker 2:07 Yeah, so it's interesting that we talk about this now, this actually was a marketing workshop that I led at the gathering spot in DC. And it was really born out of the this viral post about Callaway, that it was a black owned business. And it was interesting to me to see how many black people were actually really surprised to hear that. And I started talking to some of my friends and colleagues who worked in marketing and PR over the years. And I started asking, you know, we, as black people know full well, you know, the history of our innovations. And, you know, all the way back to early mathematics in Africa. So why were we so surprised to see that this was owned by a black man. And the reoccurring thing that I was hearing was that people were surprised because it's done so well in white spaces. And I started really wanting to unpack what that meant, you know, and why we kind of view marketplaces as being black spaces and white spaces. And then I started really diving into it further. We know we talk a lot about like content performance, and really understanding how to speak to an individual audience and their journey. And really, that is based on life experiences. And we can't ignore the fact that race plays into our life experiences. But when we really get down to like the lived experience of a working mom or a single parent, in general, a lot of those lived experiences day to day are similar, whether you're black or white. It's really just the spaces that we live in. So I put together this marketing workshop to really unpack how we've gotten to these cultural silos and how digital marketing and data can help us break some of those silos down. And it was interesting, because being in the workshop, I started realizing that some of the attendees, it almost was there was still a disconnect, because there has been this narrative for so many generations that black voices were not welcomed in white spaces. So as people have broken out of those molds, I think people really struggle with finding the right language or feeling confident and being their authentic self. Black people have often been told that they have to show up as a different version of who they are in order to be accepted into white spaces. And it's been it's impacted the way that we conduct business. It's impacted the way that we tell stories impacted the way that we market ourselves and network. You know, you hear terms like code switching, where people will change the way that they talk just based on who they're speaking with. So I actually I got approached after the workshop to build an online course that takes it even further to understand, you know, kind of the eugenics movement and the origin story of how these narratives began. And how these stereotypes got pumped into the zeitgeist so much that they've kind of become almost subconscious, like muscle memory for us. So we're working on that now and hopefully We'll be launching that this fall. Tony Kopetchny 5:04 Awesome on the course. So curious, I have a bunch of questions for you. Maybe I'll start with the most, because he talked about the core. So I'm thinking about when you're talking about the, the genesis of these narratives where they came from how it was built is the idea then though, to create a counter narrative, or to be able to at least say, When you spot that narrative, or share that narrative, you're aware and cognizant of what's happening, that the narrative is being pushed? Unknown Speaker 5:31 Right, I think it's a combination of those things, I think we have to, if we're, if we want to fix where the breakdown began, then we have to understand how it happened. But I do think that the most important thing is being unapologetic and being our most authentic selves, and not allowing these narratives to shrink us, which is a really hard thing to break. And it also is hard, because we have never been the dominant, you know, force in this country. So there's a risk when you do that, right? Like there is the risk that you are not going to be accepted and whitespaces, that you're going to make people uncomfortable. And there is kind of a retraining that we have to do of our society that goes into that. And it doesn't happen overnight, you know, so it's a combination of being more aware and cognizant of where these issues are, but also creating a counter narrative. You know, my dad shared an example with me of when he was in graduate school, and being in a predominantly white institution as an African migrants. So he was black, also a foreigner in Los Angeles at a very challenging time in the 80s, and 90s, to be a person of color in Los Angeles. And he really shared that you cannot expect to change the mind of an individual entirely, because that mindset wasn't, it didn't begin at their birth, it actually began many generations before. So a person may not be racist, but there are certain norms that they've inherited in their society because of the environment that they were around. So really, we chip away at it piece by piece, but, you know, it starts with the awareness. And then the counter narrative comes from us being genuine and unapologetic. Tony Kopetchny 7:22 Yeah, I just finished this Tim Ferriss episode when they return to, but but they dove into was saying before we're trauma, not healed is transferred, right or so it's an IT, but they have found actually now in studies, like they can actually see biomarkers, and I think mice they were studying. And so there's like this two generation trauma effect that happens to and it's interesting from the frame, you're saying is that, you know, like fight people, like you've, you've had this in your family somewhere, it's, it's part of something that's been around you, it's not going to just disappear. So you also need to be conscious and cognizant of it. That's an important piece to that. And then you were talking about in your talk, because I know a lot of our listeners are probably in the marketing fundraising space, or a lot done a comms work. You talked about seeing silos, and then and then sort of using and how you can break through the silos or siloing, the area between a white space or a black space? And it's, I'd like to dive into that a little bit. Because I think, you know, there's two from when you're still working with me here that a lot of groups have been asking us about how do we diversify audiences, it's, it's been a very popular topic, probably over the last year now. And I think everyone's still thinking about it. What do I do with it? Was it really mean? Is it is it really getting through silos, it was getting into new spaces? So I'm curious for your thoughts on that. Unknown Speaker 8:53 Yeah. Diversifying audiences is one of those terms that, you know, I wrote something for our friends over at EveryAction about this, just it's become this narrative, like brushing your teeth and eating your vegetables that everybody just knows that they're supposed to do it, but nobody really can tell you why they're doing it, and what their plan is to do it. You know, they know that there's a thing, there's a gap, and they know that it needs to be filled. But it's hard for people to really understand like, Okay, why am I reaching out to this demographic? Why do they care? You know, what am I offering to them to build a relationship? And I think black people unfortunately in this country have been tokenized for so many years and you know, people of all races you know, marginalized races really have been tokenized in different stages in different ways. But I think with black people, it's just become this like checkbox that they know people are coming in with politicians with, you know, educators with whoever it is, is coming into their community, from the outside. They are We have this in their mind this defense up that it's not a genuine interaction, and that it's really just pandering, you know? So that's where I feel the conversation really needs to start is, why are we talking to you? And why should you care that I'm talking to you? What is it that I'm doing for you? How am I being additive to your community? And how am I actually developing a relationship? Am I hearing from you about what it is like how my messaging is landing? Am I hearing feedback? And am I willing to accept the feedback? You know, sometimes I think that when we as black people try to share how something is landing with us why people sometimes get very defensive, and they don't want to be accused of being a racist. So it kind of ends up diverting the conversation. And, you know, the person who has been oppressed and marginalized, should not be responsible for taking care of the feelings of the the, you know, group of people that has had an easier time historically, you know, it's not really our responsibility, I do think that there has to be a dialogue in both directions. But I think, you know, white communities really have to get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, if they really want to achieve genuine diversification of their audience, if they want it to be sustainable and long lasting, and actually have a deep relationship with demographics that they're not accustomed to, you know, it has to really be it has to be the long game, you know, you can't just do it and fits the starts. It can't just be every February, like it has to be an ongoing relationship. Tony Kopetchny 11:36 Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, thinking about that demographics for too. It's just, we're also capable of being so internally focused, that we think everyone should assume they're gonna use the same channels I do, because that's how I use the internet. And, you know, there's some people aren't on the internet all day long. I'd hate for everyone who's listening to this that does your marketing and outreach and fundraising, but online all day, everybody, I'm sorry. It's very Unknown Speaker 12:04 true. And, you know, that's one of the things about Black culture, you know, we're very community based in a different way, right. And that is also born out of generational trauma, there's that survival mechanism of looking inward in our communities as well. So you may get a better relationship with a demographic by having more in person events and in a person interactions with that community than being in digital spaces, you know, but I think the cultural norms is one piece. Also the way that we interact with language is very different. The way we use words and terminology is very different. Yeah, there are a lot of things around how to diversify your audience that I think people kind of miss. Tony Kopetchny 12:44 And you're hitting on something that was in another episode we did to them Amina to us. But it really got back into why I mean, why what's your purpose? You know, hers was about data collection. I know, we're going to talk about safe spaces for gathering data a little bit further into this episode, too. But why do you need that data point? What are you actually going to do with it? Are you letting people know what you're doing with the data points that you're collecting? Right? And it sounds to me to like, sorry, could jump there, but the listening aspect, right, like, I want to go meet new people? Okay, well, you don't just like show up on the corner and start talking really loudly. Just anyway, Unknown Speaker 13:23 yeah, no, it's very true. And I think, you know, also being sensitive to the fact that black people have been lied to a lot. You know, they're, you know, even with the COVID vaccine, it's, I've had more empathy for black communities who have been hesitant to take it because I know that there's a long history of using black bodies for experimentation, you know, there is a history of undercounting in the census. And they're these things happen. And they, you know, there's a misuse of data all the time. So you have to be able to account for how you're using the information and also how you're protecting the people who are sharing the information with you. Tony Kopetchny 14:04 So with the course you're putting together, is it live and online? Now? Is there a way that we could share it with everybody? Unknown Speaker 14:10 Not yet, but I will definitely share it with the audience once I have it ready? For sure. It's, it's ready for pre sale now. But it's not live yet. Tony Kopetchny 14:18 It's wonderful. But please do let us know when that is ready to go. So we can share it out with everybody. Absolutely. Well, so you have also produced a film COVID. And you're getting I know you're getting ready for distribution. So I wonder if you could tell a bit about how the production came to be how it evolved, how was working on through the pandemic to coordinate for that creative effort and you know, the story throughput you're thinking about and you know, it's called Dear Black woman and when is it coming out? We can know that too. Unknown Speaker 14:51 That is also coming out in the fall. It's been a whirlwind, Tony in so many ways. I can't even tell you so this actually started because when I was traveling before I moved to DC, I just started meeting some incredible women from all over the world who are just doing incredible things. And they're the black women that I was meeting were from all different parts of the world, different walks of life. But they all have the same kinds of narratives about self worth. And I think women in general, because of the way that we are viewed in society, and the way we were painted and put into these boxes of, you know, being a career woman, that means you're not a family, woman, and all of these identities that we're forced into, it's kind of magnified for black women, because we're constantly being forced to prove that we're also intelligent that we're not, you know, angry all the time, like, you know, everything that we're labeled as it just adds to it. But then there's also this internal issue of colorism in our community, and all of these other things, women who are biracial, struggling to, you know, identify themselves and figure out who they are. So it was interesting to me as an Ethiopian because we were not colonized, we were not a part of the slave trade. So I never grew up with those kinds of issues of my black identity, we didn't really think about being black, we always thought of ourselves as Ethiopian Americans. Because we grew up in Kenya was a predominantly black country. Everybody I knew was black, you know, doctors, bankers, whoever, you know. So, you know, I didn't have those same, I guess, that imposter syndrome. When I came back to the States, I didn't feel uncomfortable, you know, just speaking up for myself and advocating for myself. But then as I started to experience life in America more, I started realizing like, Wow, if I had grown up here, I don't know if I would have had the same level of confidence that I had in my black identity just because of the nature of being here. So dear black woman came out of that, and I started interviewing different women from different parts of the Diaspora about how they came to their version of self love, and self worth and what that means to them and how it impacts their relationships. Some of them have struggled with mental health. And that's the other piece of the trauma. You know, you mentioned the the trauma that's transferred. There's a lot of data being collected right now about trauma, specifically with indigenous populations in Australia. I know, there's a big study that's been happening. I know that there's also a study happening here for black communities, and specifically in relation to economic inequality, as well as police brutality and how it impacts not only mental health, but physical health, and that you actually can develop like, it starts to impact your DNA, you know, your actual, you'll see populations that are born with more stress related illnesses than other communities just based on their proximity to wealth or their proximity to police brutality. So it was a very interesting, you know, project I can doing it, I intended to do this very quickly. And then of course, COVID happened, and everything stopped. So some of the women that I initially had booked, had pulled out, I had to find some new subjects, and then it was kind of like hitting the road with friends along the way, who would help me out with camera crews. And, you know, this was completely self funded, self produced. So it's been a bear, it's been a bear. And of course, every time that there was a new spike, like the Delta spike was a huge one. That ended up costing me quite a bit of money with you know, having to change the city restrictions, were all changing, again, having to change the number of people that were going to be in the room, people I had already paid. It was just, it was very stressful, but it was very worth it. I feel that because of the multiculturalism in my background, I feel that I have a unique voice and being able to help people understand how black people feel. And so I really do believe that my purpose is to make people who don't feel that they have a voice to be heard. So, you know, we're at the finish line now. So working on the actual distribution plan, but yeah, it's been it's been crazy, but it's been worth it. Tony Kopetchny 19:24 I feel great to be at this point now. Unknown Speaker 19:28 Are you telling Tony? Yeah, it was actually also the Omicron. CERT was kind of the final stretch where we were doing audio editing in final touches, and it was like, rounds and rounds of sickness and it kind of got to the point, like not just illness but also just exhaustion like I was the person who got sick was just like, all right, I'm out. I need like a month of not working and just sitting at home and like I'll be back to you later. Tony Kopetchny 20:00 Have you these are all in person interviews, and these weren't over zoom. There wasn't any though. Unknown Speaker 20:04 Oh, no, everything was in person, everything was in person, which was also interesting, because, you know, they also have their own families, all the interview subjects and, and the crews that were working on this. So, you know, they also had to be cognizant of, you know, wearing masks and distancing and making sure that everybody gets tested and being cautious if they have a relative at home who's going through chemo or you know, anything like that that was going on. It was it was crazy. Tony Kopetchny 20:31 What did you experience of shooting this through COVID, then from when you probably had a concept, you're like, I'm gonna get this go. And here's it's gonna, how do how did shooting it through COVID sort of impact that or did it didn't? Were there any changes that occurred to you and your thinking? Yeah, you Unknown Speaker 20:46 know, it was the overall concept stayed the same. But it was definitely more the logistics that had to change and the more visual kind of concept that I had for how it was going to flow that had to change based on whatever studios were available. Luckily, I had some great editors who could help kind of create the ambiance and the vision that I had, and, you know, post, but it was, it was interesting. Also, just having to switch the individual people out towards the beginning as well. It kind of changed the direction a little bit. And it actually ended up working out better because I think we had a more diverse group of women than I originally started out with. So I honestly think though, it was less teaching me about the film and more helping me understand the impact of COVID on economics more, because so much of the American economy is based in the entertainment industry, and so much of that had to stop. And then I started thinking about the vendors and all these other people who are involved in that that business. And it just made me realize like, yeah, people, I don't think people really stopped to think about the ripple effect in that sense of like, all these people who had to constantly change their plans is not just the corporation's who can afford it. I have to constantly change their plans. And I was also the people like who are working independently who have to, you know, Shell out the bucks. Tony Kopetchny 22:12 Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's eye opening. It's great point to bring back to everybody. So to shift gears a little bit, but not too far. So you're now working at the black future labs, you're doing communications efforts there? What can you tell us about the work that y'all are doing at Black future labs? Unknown Speaker 22:29 Yeah. So Black futures lab is an interesting organization, it's our purpose is to build political power for black people, we talk a lot about turning communities into constituencies and what that really means. Being a nonprofit, of course, you know, it's nonpartisan. So we also have the, the other side of the house that our sister organization, black to the future Action Fund, where we can do a lot more political engagement there. It's been an interesting experience being on this side of things I know, I've shared with you that after the protesting, after the George Floyd murder, there were a lot of instances with my own family, you know, just the the vitriol and you know, my younger brother was jumped outside of his work. And, you know, I think once he started driving, I started feeling the sense of like, worry all the time, because he was getting pulled over more often. And just the process of even buying him a car, it's like, okay, don't get him a Dodge Charger, because that's like a stereotypical black guy car, you know, it's just things that you had to think about. And then when he had that experience of being jumped, it really made me feel like I need to be in the fight, you know, I really need to like do something to actually make a direct impact on what's happening to black people in this country. So being at the organization has really opened my eyes to a lot more of the nuance. It's helped me open my eyes to the gaps between how policies are written versus how they're implemented. It's been it's been really eye opening. But one thing that we're doing right now is the black census project. And this is going to be the biggest survey of black people in 157 years. The last time that we did this in 2018, was the largest survey since Reconstruction. And the purpose of this census is to hear from communities about what they actually want to see happening for the futures of their communities. I think, you know, back to that point about pandering politicians are constantly, especially, you know, progressives are always just kind of taking the black vote for granted. They're just assuming that it's going to be there. And that's part of why it's been a very historically low voter turnout for many years. And this last time around, it was a huge turnout of black votes and black people really handed Joe Biden the White House and to see unfortunately, a lot of the stuff has been out of his control, right COVID is still around the Ukraine situation is happening like these things are, are actively in hot pursuit. So there's unfortunately no way to put you know, Russia and Ukraine on the backburner so that we can focus on student loans. But the reality is like, if you made a promise, then you know, people are expecting you to deliver. So it's been interesting seeing the knowing the importance of collecting this information, but also seeing that people are disappointed, you know, people are really disappointed and it's been difficult to get people to focus, you know, on what's next. Tony Kopetchny 25:34 So with black, since it's it's independently run is your you're the sole organization, you have partners working with you. Unknown Speaker 25:42 So we're partnering with a research firm socio Analytica, they're great, they are actually doing the, the research and data collection for us and the synthesizing and all of that. So we have some partner organizations who are helping us amplify the message. May June, I think we're going to be having some in person events around that. So yeah, we have some great partners on the ground, who are going to be volunteering at different festivals, conferences, to get people to fill out the survey, we're going to be doing some House meetings, people are volunteering to to run those in their own homes just to get their own communities involved. So yeah, we have a lot of people who are involved and engaged and, and ready to get this through. Tony Kopetchny 26:25 Once you collected the data, and you've run the analysis, I mean, what are the anticipated outputs? Is it something that you would? Who you packaging it for? Is it packaged for policymakers? Is it packaged for current members of Congress, White House local, Unknown Speaker 26:41 so it's kind of an all of the above. So on the black futures lab side, we're going to be reporting out the data straight on, we're going to be sharing the data with our sister organization, black to the future Action Fund. And on that side of the house, we will be developing a black agenda ahead of the midterms. So we'll start collecting responses at the end of July, we're hoping to roll up the agenda in August so that we can push it hard for the candidates that we're endorsing in the midterms. So Tony Kopetchny 27:13 sure, if everyone if people want to if people are interested, they want to get involved, they want to get more information about this ratio we send them to, Unknown Speaker 27:20 absolutely. So Black futures lab.org has a lot of information about the census, if you want to actually take the census, then there is a separate website for that called Black census.org. And then black to the future.org. And that's the number two, that is going to be where you will be able to find the black agenda in August. Tony Kopetchny 27:42 Wonderful, thank you, we're gonna make sure all those links are on the show notes page. So anyone who's following along with us and wants to help or get involved, there'll be links there for you. So we had talked a little bit too about, you know, with the data being collected, we talked about anxiety around a reaching out or being involved giving information, you know, so what's the experience been for y'all? And how is this working for, you know, creating a safe space for gathering data Unknown Speaker 28:10 like, yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know, unfortunately, because we've had such a historically negative experience with being undercounted in the census, that term kind of jars, people. But when they hear that it's being presented by black futures lab, that name recognition kind of disarms them a little bit. And I think the recurring theme, even when I talked to reporters about the census, there is this unfortunate to standard that because the sampling of minority communities has historically been small, they just kind of get left out. And there hasn't been enough investment in growing the sample size, so that you can actually get an accurate enough read to be able to report on it. And I think that's the narrative that we're trying to rake is building the relationship first, so that people can trust us with the information and the methodology that we're using. And also just making sure that we are protecting the integrity of the data and the people who are submitting these responses. We don't want people to feel like oh, you know, we're not selling this information. Anybody else, we're not sharing it, you know, anywhere else. It's fully locked down. So and it's anonymous. But I think also, the intentionality of who we're reaching out to is important. Unfortunately, there are groups within every demographic who are marginalized, not just black, but everywhere. It's LGBTQ, you know, formerly incarcerated, people who have, you know, physical challenges, things like that veterans, people who are maybe not legal migrants. So we don't care about any of that. If you are black 18 or older and you're living in the United States of America. We want to hear what your lived experience is and what policies would make an impact for you and your family. So that's, I think, another message that's been resonating with people is like, Oh, wow, you actually do want to hear from my cousin, not just from me who has like the Masters, you also want to hear from this other person who may have had a different walk in life. So, you know, just making sure that all black voices are being lifted equally, it's been really important. Tony Kopetchny 30:16 It's incredible. We'll be looking forward to see the results that come out from that. And hopefully, we might be able to get some attention your way. With our few listeners, I think we're growing a little bit hopefully. Unknown Speaker 30:28 Nice. Love it, love to see it, man love to see it. Tony Kopetchny 30:34 Is there anything you'd like to ask the audience? Before we get into our final question, which is, you know, Unknown Speaker 30:39 I actually would just like to say thanks. You know, I think one of the things with the partner organizations that we're working with, even at Black futures lab, one thing that we talk a lot about is having allies outside of our community. And I, you know, went even at working at Parsons TKO, I know he shared with you that that was really the first time that I was in a space, predominantly white organization where I felt seen, I felt heard, I felt valued. I never felt like I had to show up as anything other than my authentic self. And I think, you know, the way that you all reach out to organizations like ours is really important to make sure that we're furthering on all of these changes that we want to see in this country. I think we all have the same goal of having more happiness and joy. I think we'd love to see that after the last couple years we've all had, so I would got to make sure that we're continuing to work together to do that. Tony Kopetchny 31:30 In our promise, fundamental right, is the pursuit of happiness. Isn't that something? Somebody wrote that somewhere, Unknown Speaker 31:36 somewhere? That's what I saw in a cereal box, man. Tony Kopetchny 31:44 I would think this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for all these insights and a lot about your story here. And I'm sure if anyone wants to reach out to you individually, I mean, it should Unknown Speaker 31:55 feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn 100% Anytime. Tony Kopetchny 31:59 All right, so to end every episode for everyone who's been listening now or regular audience, you know, we've also created a Spotify list of songs for you to get through your workweek or just mellow out or enjoy. And so my last question for all of my guests is what is your go to song when you need a boost? And why? Unknown Speaker 32:17 You know, I'm gonna throw you a sidewinder here, so if I need a boost on a run, I 100% Play Busta Rhymes every time I swear, he just makes me pick up the pace every single time. If I need like a feel good song that I usually go with Stevie Wonder. But there's one particular song where if I just need to get my energy going, and I'm just like really tired. It's on West African song called One night a w o n m a exclamation point. an afro beat song the beat just like gets me going. If I feel like I am depleted, then that one will just turn me right up. Tony Kopetchny 33:01 All right, well, I'm gonna we will get that into the Spotify list. Thank you for sharing that with us. And thank you for sharing your time with everyone today. It was wonderful to have the space to talk with you again, my friend. Unknown Speaker 33:12 Thanks for having me, Tony. I appreciate it, man. Tony Kopetchny 33:14 Thank you. Lourdes was good to see you. You too, Tony. Thanks. All right, by an artisan by everybody. I Outro 33:22 thank you for listening. Join us again for more engaging ideas with your host Parsons TKO CEO Tony Kopetchny. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a comment and share with your friends. Send us your feedback at create change at Parsons tko.com. Transcribed by https://otter.ai